Can someone please explain Appendix K to me?

[Lakeland997]

A big ask I know but I can't get my head around this:

The stated aim of the regulation is:

"The FIA has created the regulations in Appendix K so that
Historic Cars may be used for Competitions under a set of rules
that preserve the specifications of their period and prevent the
modifications of performance and behaviour which could arise
through the application of modern technology."

But how does this square with the Swiftune et al race engines that seem to have astonishing amounts of 'modern technology' applied?

[rich@minispares.com]

its a grey area

where do you stop 'modern technology'

car racing has moved forwards with the saftey aspects and this (in some ways) has altered how the cars look and drive.

i think with stuff like dog boxes, its a sensible upgrade, id much rather have a £2000 dog box that will last for years than be forced to try and run a 3 sync box that would need a rebuild every couple of races

if historic racing was forced to run to 100% strict appendix k regs, then it would simply wither and die as there is just not enough of the 'old technology' to be avalible for the people who wish to race now.

the reason that historic racing is so attractive and busy in the uk is because of the efforts and investments of people like swifty, sure his engines are mega money, but they are for the people who want to arrive and drive, with a gauanteeded period of reliability - you could probably be up at the top of the grid if you did it 'old school' but would be rebuilding engines every other week and spending hours and hours on the required development work - unfortunatley i just think a lot of people just dont have the time or ability to do this in the modern day.

[Lakeland997]

That's well explained Rich thanks.
My question wasn't without a background.

The attitude you're describing seems to exist in racing but seems to be very different in historic rallying where I'm hitting a brick wall with regard to items such as the use of replacement EN40B cranks like the excellent one you sell at Minispares.

[rich@minispares.com]

The attitude you're describing seems to exist in racing but seems to be very different in historic rallying where I'm hitting a brick wall with regard to items such as the use of replacement EN40B cranks like the excellent one you sell at Minispares.

ive heard similar stories in the rallying circles and it seams that the powers that be in that would rather their competitors use a 40 year old crank and accept all the reliability issues and expense that come with that then use a off the shelf steel crank that, really, in all honestly does what, lets a rcae engine thats been thrashed hold together for a bit longer...


it just seems that all they are trying to do is make the cars more unreliable for the people rallying, so they have to spend more time stripping and rebuilding the cars....

very strange - at the end of the day, its like dog boxes in racing, if a quality part is avalible, at a reasonable cost for ALL competitors to buy, then there is no performance advantage, and it just gives a level of reliablilty, for which both the drivers and the crowds see the benefits

[Lakeland997]

A Dog box... I dream of having a dog box!
I realised very quickly last year that synchro rings will last two maybe three one-day events then it's major overhaul time.

[rich@minispares.com]

A Dog box... I dream of having a dog box!
I realised very quickly last year that synchro rings will last two maybe three one-day events then it's major overhaul time.

its why i went to a dog box, i got sick of the constant spending on the synchro box, it was an easy 150-250 every time it was in bits, plus the hassle and time of doing it

the dog box was a fit and forget item, ive had it in bits once after i popped the motor, but that was just to clean the case out of all the sludge, it didnt need a single new part

in historic racing the tyres are the one thing that levels the playing field - unless you are finically able to fit a lot more than 'normal' people and start getting them 'camber corrected', but of course to be able to have the knowledge to do this, you have to have the hours behind the wheel, so have the costs for that.

at the end of the day, the people at the top are their for two reasons, they are naturally talented and/or have more time and money to spend.

this would have been the smae 'in period'

[wantafaster1]

Hi Andy, I'm all for simplicity and reliability too. Message me because I'd love to know what you are thinking.

[Pete]

if historic racing was forced to run to 100% strict appendix k regs, then it would simply wither and die as there is just not enough of the 'old technology' to be avalible for the people who wish to race now.

I agree on that with S blocks and 163 heads but the rest of the fancy cranks, rods, recast this and that, suspension, tricky bits all over the place has just made App K racing unaffordable for the average working Joe unless he wants to be at the back. You can't expect engineers to stand still so theyre always gonna want to improve original kit but is it historic...? Mmm.. that grey area again.

Fair doos for Goodwood, anything goes virtually as its a piece of theatre and a very entertaining one and long may that continue.

[App K]

[quote="rich@minispares.com"][quote="Lakeland997

it just seems that all they are trying to do is make the cars more unreliable for the people rallying, so they have to spend more time stripping and rebuilding the cars....

absolutely..but is that not the point in racing in a historic series?.I honestly think the technology should be period and it just may introduce new blood back in to the sport. I know you could put a fairly competitive car together for 15 grand not 60 grand like some are on the grid now.. It would be nice to know that your not competing against your rivals with a swiftune all aluminium gas flowed titanium Kevlar thingymajig.

‘Kin good engines though

[Lakeland997]

‘Kin good engines though

There's a video on the Swiftune FB page showing one of their engines making around 147bhp on the dyno

The problem is that historic cars used in serious competition wear out their parts pretty fast and need replacements. Those replacement parts are very often improved.
So always using 'period' technology just isn't an option.

The particular case I'm struggling with at the moment is crankshafts:
Using an original S crank isn't a realistic option now due to availability/cost/condition of available parts and it would also need to be matched with an S block which has the same availability/cost/condition issues.

So the alternatives available (Minispares, MED, Swiftune) all have 'improved counterbalance' and have therefore been specifically banned by the HRCR.
The 1275GT/1300 crank wasn't introduced until 1969 so is in theory not allowed in Category 1 (up to '68) anyway and is inferior to the part that was available in period.

So the bizarre selection of choices seems to be:
Find a magical source of NOS 'S' cranks
Use a crank inferior to what was available to the works teams in the 60s (and which is not really eligible anyway)
Machine the additional counterbalance off a modern crank
Run an illegal crank.

[App K]

I don’t think anybody would use an ‘S’ block for serious motorsport now and haven’t for some time
I haven’t got a problem with an A series substitute non ‘S’ block being used as at least it’s made of the same material and virtual identical casting(ish).
Hardly rare, I think I’ve got a dozen.

Just noticed there’s a 1275 block for sale on the forum £150!
Might buy it for mi stash

[GraemeC]

You could always buy one of the EN40B base forging so and get it machined to what you want?

[GTM71]

‘Kin good engines though

There's a video on the Swiftune FB page showing one of their engines making around 147bhp on the dyno

The problem is that historic cars used in serious competition wear out their parts pretty fast and need replacements. Those replacement parts are very often improved.
So always using 'period' technology just isn't an option.

The particular case I'm struggling with at the moment is crankshafts:
Using an original S crank isn't a realistic option now due to availability/cost/condition of available parts and it would also need to be matched with an S block which has the same availability/cost/condition issues.

So the alternatives available (Minispares, MED, Swiftune) all have 'improved counterbalance' and have therefore been specifically banned by the HRCR.
The 1275GT/1300 crank wasn't introduced until 1969 so is in theory not allowed in Category 1 (up to '68) anyway and is inferior to the part that was available in period

So the bizarre selection of choices seems to be:
Find a magical source of NOS 'S' cranks
Use a crank inferior to what was available to the works teams in the 60s (and which is not really eligible anyway)
Machine the additional counterbalance off a modern crank
Run an illegal crank.

My personal feeling is that the FIA is slowly killing historic racing at grass roots level, if you are running a Ferrari or a F1 car then you are in breathing in very rarefied air, that is another world, but if you look at the typical entry list for a Pre 66 TC race there are 4 makes of car (Lotus Cortina, Alfa Guilia, Mini and BMW 2000) from a spectator point of view, Yawn!
That is mainly down to most of the drivers are very well off and successful people and they don't want to trail around at the back in a noncompetitive car,
so they all buy the same cars!
I see no real problem in using later blocks and upgrading the internals to modern materials etc to keep racing , using the original parts is nearly always more expensive!
Otherwise in the future we will have a bunch of "remanufactured cars" racing, with the originals squirreled away in the garage as they will be too rare and valuable to race.
As for what will happen when the internal combustion engine is finally put out to pasture, that is another conversation altogether!


They should look at CSCC and these guys in France, talk about diverse grids!

http://www.maxi1300series.fr/

Simon

[hanlminiman]

Swiftune rule OK! Check out FIA regs.

[Lakeland997]

The FIA Regs say this:

Crankshafts, connecting rods, pistons and bearings may be of larger dimensions than the period specification, within the limits of the standard crankcase. They must be made from the same material type. The method of construction is free.

But the interpretation of this in racing and rallying seems to be quite different.

[YMJ]

Swiftune rule OK! Check out FIA regs.

Yes, he's got that tied down tight. Unbelieveable! If I designed and commissioned a cylinder head that gave more power and cooling than an OEM 22G940 casting, they'd tell me to sod off...and rightly so.

Historic racing in the UK is a farce anyway...no one ever gets their cars checked properly. Even in kiddies grasstrack, the engines are stripped on a regular basis. I wouldn't be surprised if a few 1340 or 1380 units have been run in the past few years.

NB. 147bhp on Swifty's dyno? That's BSI bhp is it?

[Pete]

Going to be very interesting to see how the new TBR engines perform this year!

[rich@minispares.com]

Going to be very interesting to see how the new TBR engines perform this year!

TBR.....

[YMJ]

Going to be very interesting to see how the new TRB engines perform this year!

TBR.....

Yes,
I must be the only person in the entire world not to be going to them this year

[Pete]

Going to be very interesting to see how the new TBR engines perform this year!

TBR.....

That's what I said!

Tom did a good job of sorting my cylinder head problems out.