Remote 22G846 / 22G1128 gearbox rear housing - Mini variant

[dodge44]

Two rear castings - both appear to be 22A147 (?), but on the right hand example in this image I'm unfamiliar with the linkage. Any ideas what it's from? I'm sure someone will know

Roger

[Vegard]

4sync Magic Wands basically.

[dodge44]

4sync Magic Wands basically.

Many thanks - that figures now ! Part number of the 'block' is 22A1715. I've got a 4-synchro magic wand gear lever somewhere. Don't recall ever having the pressed plate that goes in place of the remote arm though.

[kit of bits]

Maybe a later moke?

[docka]

Might be interested in buying if one is for sale

[mini63]

The one on the right is a 'commercial' type gear change as found on early 70s boxes including mokes pre-rod change.
There should be a large pressed tin cover plate that looks like a chocolate mould that bolts on where the extension housing normally would and that holds the 'magic wand stick against the bearer block as seen in the pic.
The stick ball inserts into the 'smoking' pipe shaft as per normal.

Rare.......

22G846 is 4 sync Riley Elf by the way....

[timmy201]

There's a photo here:
http://www.ausmini.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=76578

[dodge44]

Thanks for all the replies folks. I've used one but have not come across a dismantled magic wand 4-synchro in the flesh before, so it threw me. Unfortunately both are spoken for, but I will obviously have to swap the mechanism from an ADO16 remote housing to the one on the right to make it suitable for my needs.

The subject was discussed in the ADO16 section of the forum a while back, but something of an urban myth surrounds the history of 22G846 casings - for some reason they were not fitted to Mini's, but had a wider application than is usually quoted. It was concluded the 4-synchro box with a 22G846 casting number first emerged in late 1966 on Elf's and Hornets, but also found use on early 1300 ADO16's (1967/8). Unless Alan has come up with something since, there is no evidence they also went into 1100's in the period before 22G1128 production started in late 1967. The ADO16 application used the familiar 'sandwich' plate and side bolts for remote arm attachment of course, not long through bolts. The box on the left in my image is in fact a close ratio 22G846 from a very early 1300 ADO16, but currently has a Mini rear, fitted by yours truly over 20 years ago.
No-one has come up with a definitive answer but it would appear the 22G846 casing was around between 1966-68, with some concurrent production of the 22G1128 casing before that became the defacto remote housing.

[Hopefully I've got all that right, but I'm sure someone will chip in with any corrections!]


Roger

[Hofandyhof]

Yes, the strange one is used along with a pressed plate to allow the use of a magic wand gearstick instead of the cast remote.
I have this set-up on my '64 Elf.
I was told that the reason this strange set-up occurred was that BMC had a load of front bulkhead / floor pressings to use up that had the magic wand aperture, not the later remote !

[mab01uk]

This earlier thread may also be of interest.
Converting a Remote box to use Magic wand gear stick:-
viewtopic.php?f=3&p=89542

The 4 synch magic wand gearlever is different, ie. has the keyway slot in the ball at the top not side.



Photo shows parts needed to run the magic wand set up with the remote diff casing.
eg. when a Mk2/3 Four synchro box is used on a mk1

2A3467 Bush
2A3390 Spring
22A1832 Seat / Locating foot
88G553 Selector shaft
22A1717 Cover
22A1382 Gearlever 1968-75 (Later type wand with slot at the top of ball)

3 synchro type (both have slot at the side)
22A91 GEAR LEVER, straight 1959-61.
88G232 GEAR LEVER, cranked 1961-68

Diagram:
http://www.somerfordmini.co.uk/eshop/in ... age&id=151

Adaptor plate:

[dodge44]

<snip>

2A3467 Bush
2A3390 Spring
22A1832 Seat / Locating foot
88G553 Selector shaft
22A1717 Cover
22A1382 Gearlever 1968-75 (Later type wand with slot at the top of ball)

<snip>

Diagram:
http://www.somerfordmini.co.uk/eshop/in ... age&id=151

For ref : The 'Seat / Locating foot' attached to my housing is numbered 22A1715, so I assume this is another of those MOWOG numbering wobbles where the number on the item is a casting number, and 22A1832 is actually the assembly. I'm guessing there should also be a sprung pin in the middle of the foot to locate in the gearlever keyway, which as you say has it on the top not side as 3-synchro.

[rich@minispares.com]

you could also get a normal 4 sync magic wand box

probably easier to find than the rare remote conversion

[docka]

you could also get a normal 4 sync magic wand box

probably easier to find than the rare remote conversion

would that still be a 22g1128?

[rich@minispares.com]

you could also get a normal 4 sync magic wand box

probably easier to find than the rare remote conversion

would that still be a 22g1128?

technically yes, but it has a magic wand back on it from the factory

[dodge44]

technically yes, but it has a magic wand back on it from the factory

Presumably using the same rear casting as the 3-syncho boxes Rich - So if it's different is the casting number known on this variant and is it a matched line bored pair like the 3-synchro boxes, or are the rears interchangeable like the other 4-synchro boxes?

I'm sure plenty know this but it's worth saying that a common fudge at the time was to wing it and fit an original magic wand rear on a 4-syncho box when your old box gave up the ghost, so it's possible these hybrids are still out there to muddy the waters. My understanding is you usually got away with it without needing to skim the bores but sometimes ran into difficulties - I remember a work colleague doing this on his Mini van in the late 1980's and he had no trouble at all. Serial offender too as he's done it previously on other cars.

[Spider]

you could also get a normal 4 sync magic wand box

probably easier to find than the rare remote conversion

would that still be a 22g1128?

technically yes, but it has a magic wand back on it from the factory

If I am understanding this right Rich, you're saying this has a diff cap similar to the 3 Synchro Magic Wand?

We never got those here. From 1968 when the 4 Synchro Boxes came in, the cars that had the Magic Wand had the same diff cap as those with a Remote. These were Vans, Moke and some of the Fleet orders.

I have fitted several 3 Synchro Magic Wand diff caps to 4 Synchro Boxes, and is usually a straight forward modification (though some machining is usually necessary). Would you say that this is what the factory did as well?

[mab01uk]

As I said in the other thread from a cost reduction/production engineering point of view it would seem the only reason for BMC/BL to justify the design of the alternative magic wand gearchange in 1968 for the 4-syncro box using the remote diff housing, would have been to create a a 'universal' solution with more common parts with the existing remote change on the production line. Otherwise what would have been the sense in spending time and money designing the later wand change and then also continuing with the earlier design in production?
Then again this was BL where logic did not always come into the equation......eg. it is on record (from ex-BL workers) that an 850cc A-series engine cost more to produce in the later years than a 998cc because of the lower volumes in production.....even though the 850 Mini had to be sold for less it cost more to build!

[Tim]

...I'm guessing there should also be a sprung pin in the middle of the foot to locate in the gearlever keyway, which as you say has it on the top not side as 3-synchro...

There's a pin, but its rigid not sprung. Its common for the pin to wear, often to the point that it breaks off. This can make changing gears somewhat challenging, as the gear stick will flop around all over the place. I've seen them missing entirely, with just a ridge worn into the alloy foot doing the work.

I usually cut a section from the shaft of a drill bit to replace the pin. Often the groove in the ball is quite worn too which makes the gear change very sloppy. Around here the gear sticks are very hard to source, I've seen them built up with weld, but I'm sure the precision of the groove suffers.

Tim

[dodge44]

Out of curiousity I've experimented with mating a random 3-synchro magic wand rear to a 4-synchro 22G1128 gearbox. Not very scientific as all I have are a set of engineers calipers to check the bores but in this case to all intents and purposes they appear to line up with no pinching of the bearings, but there is a slight mismatch on the side faces. A straight edge and feeler gauge indicates a discrepancy of about 0.003" on one face. So I think the answer is as expected - the agricultural method will work but there may be a question mark on just how long the bearings will last without clocking things in and skimming the faces as Spider has indicated?

[Spider]

Dodge44, you might be on to a winner there.

Do a dry fit assembly with a diff and some gaskets between the cap and box. Start off without any nuts on the cap and see how it lines up then fit tighten it down with nuts / washers (just on the 3/8" studs will be fine), then release those and again, see how it looks.

If I fit the cap off at an initial fit up as you've done and find there is misalignment on the bearing tunnels, I do away with the dowels between them - they are really only there for machining. Once you put a set of diff bearings in there, you've got all the location you need in one plane, then line up one of the side plate faces and see how far off the other is. You can also split the difference here.

Ideally, you want these faces between the box and cap to be on the same plane, ie, no step but with thicker gaskets and some RTV, you'll get away with up to 0.010" - no guarantees at that, but I've done it in a pinch (years ago). One problem that will arise though if they are this far out is that the bushes in the side plate(s) will wear pretty bad, so you can eventually expect to see a leak from the seals. Thinking out a loud - you'd possibly be better off finding some gasket material of an appropriate thickness and cutting a half gasket. Or of course, finding someone to machine the faces back. Off hand, it takes me about an hour to do both sides - only about 10 minutes cutting time and the rest in clocking it up. So, in a commercial shop, that would be around 100 - 130 bucks in these parts.