Fake or Genuine? Speedwell badge

[miniman24]

Hi all, after months of searching I have been offered this Speedwell badge on another site - I have asked for pics of the rear to see the J Fray markings, not received yet though - what do you guys reckon? The dimpled casting, paint and shape look correct but the casting on the letters looks a bit soft to me, may just be the pic quality though. He only wants £70 for it, which seems a bit cheap.

[Pete]

I agree the letter casting looks more rounded than the gen one I had.

[Pete]

This J Fray one sold on Ebay recently for about £90

[mk1]

Looks like it could possibly be one of the heritage garage ones to me.

The textured background is "coarser" that the original 60's ones.

If it has threaded lugs on the back then it definitely is.


M

[miniman24]

Bugger, trust me to miss it Pete. I search for Speedwell stuff every other day on ebay too!

Mark, Im looking particularly at the bottom of the "P" - the little horizontal finisher at the base of the "P" looks very under-defined compared to pics of other genuine ones, as does the gap between the "E" and the "D" - also the base of the "E"s doesn't look to be parallel with the bottom edge of the badge - will wait to see pics of the reverse. Thanks for the input guys!

[66Traveller]

I agree - the Heritage Garage ones are slightly larger than the original J Fray ones with this type of strongly textured background and two threaded studs on the rear. You can usually also see the word "Speedwell" in reverse - will post a photo later.

[miniman24]

Shows how little I know about Speedwell - Heritage garage? Is this to do with the 90's reboot? I have a catalogue from that era and the badge is listed for sale, Id rather have a genuine 60's one but if this is the real deal in some form or another than Ill buy it too.

[Prooij]

Here is a pic with two Heritage garage badges I have, looks different to me.

[mk1]

Id rather have a genuine 60's one but if this is the real deal in some form or another than Ill buy it too.

Anyone got a tin opener, I have a can of worms that needs opening!

You will get differing opinions as to whether the Heritage Garage incarnation of Speedwell was "genuine" or not. Personally my take is that the company was set up by someone buying a defunked name from Companies house & taking advantage of the history & good will without any right to it. Just like the *********** brothers bought the Downton name.

That said, John Adair (Heritage Garage) was a true enthusiast & did produce some nice cars & decent quality bits & bobs. But are these "genuinely" a Speedwell item.

Personally I feel not, but I am sure that others will have other opinions. Speedwell was set up in the 1950's in North London & expired in the mid 70's when the original company Speedwell Performance Conversions Ltd & it's successors Speedwell (1969) Ltd & finally Speedwell of Chesham all went bust.

If I was to set myself up as "Speedwell (1969) Ltd. & began to produce Speedwell badges & shiny shit, would that make the repro items genuine? Somehow I doubt it.

The Speedwell badges produced by Heritage Garage are of commendably good quality compared to the sh1t available on ebay, but when the original 1960's item is not to hard to get hold of why bother, if you are after an original item.

[Prooij]

Found a pic of backside:

[almondgreen]

I think both Speedwell are original, one is 60ies Speedwell and one is 90ies Speedwell.

The 90ies badges are better than the other cheap copies You can buy.

By the way, I have a cheap copy Speedwell badge that has been fitted to my Mini since the early 90ies.
This badge has more moths for me than an original one....

[miniman24]

I think for me it all depends on the quality of the item - I do have some material from the 90's Speedwell and there appears to be some decent quality items on offer, however I also like as many of the special bits on my car to be period, the car is a '72 so I like the idea that all the Speedwell bits Ive put on it could have been bought new or relatively new when the car was made; Ive put Mamba wheels on instead of Speedwell wheels due to this reason, couldn't find any genuine ones (plus I like the W&P arches too much to get rid!) - a genuine Speedwell badge has always been high on the list. The seller is emailing a pic of the rear, so we'll see what that uncovers.

[mk1]

A selection of Speedwell badges from James.

Original in packaging



Yellow Variant



Heritage Garage Version

[66Traveller]

Thanks Mark for uploading the photos. I agree that the next best thing too a genuine J Fray badge is a heritage garage one. Some of the other repros are smooth behind the lettering and poorly cast.

[miniman24]

Yes, they certainly seem to be of appreciable quality - yeah, the repros are pretty terrible, bought one just to see and they're not comparable - I suppose it doesn't matter if a repro is stolen at a show or something though! Threaded lugs were a good idea.

[miniman24]

So, a few more pics - the relevant J.Fray markings appear to be present, surprisingly! However, they too look a little soft to my eyes - plus the more pronounced dimples, slightly soft Speedwell lettering - is this an attempt at a more convincing fake?

[mk1]

is this an attempt at a more convincing fake?

Yes it is. I have not seen one of them before.

[miniman24]

Bugger, thought so. Out of interest, what confirms it irrefutably in your far more experienced view? Ill offer him £20 for it out of interest and to compare it to the genuine one I will find soon!

[mk1]

Apart from the variations spotted on the front, soft edges, misshaped letters etc.

The back is absolutely conclusive.

A - Is a crack in the rubber mould where it has given up around the fixing peg. This is a likely place for this to happen as the peg sits deep in one 1/2 of the mould & needs pulling out by hand.

B - Soft edge with pinhole bubbles in it from casting (All originals were die cast, not mould cast or struck.

C - Another mould flaw not visible on the originals.

D - Dull chrome plating on pins. I have only seen no plating or bright plating.

E - Another mould defect

F - General uneven surface on back of badge. Nothing like a die struck original.

Just compare the look of it to the image of a NOS original below.

Mark F