MWS 12" Rosepetal replicas...

[In the shed]

I have experience with Chinese imports. I have been over there and know what the score is. A while ago I went to a big show over in Guangzhou and it peeled my eyeballs.

I use rope access equipment by a company who's name begins with P. It's very expensive and "made in france" by a team of onion wearing, stripy jumpered mountaineers. Only it isn't. I was over at the show looking at other "stuff" and thought WTF!!!! when I noticed a stall from a rescue kit manufacturer with the same stuff. It was the same apart from the trademark was not there. THE SAME. I couldn't believe my eyes. Now, when you go hanging your life off something, you get familiar with it. You know it's every moulding seam and injection point, you know the exact hue and the exact bolt types and the whole look. You know it's the right one. You know that it isn't a copy, but it's come out of the same tooling with the brand name tooling inserts replaced with blanks.

"It is an offense to reproduce, or use the P trademark in any way, anyone caught doing so will be shouted at and spanked".

Oddly enough, at the same time, P put some scare stories out about chinese rip-off kit and showed some photos of some hideously bent, like they had used it to referee a tug of war between a unimog and a ship. It was blatant rubbish.

I've seen the rope, I've seen the food machinery and the fine engineering. Going around the show was like walking around M&S, ASDA, etc, etc, etc.

The big players are about profit, value and quality. Mr Minispares is about Mr Minispares' bank account, not some sort of English business supporting crusade. There is no romance, it's about money and it's about mark up. You get the best stuff, for the biggest mark up in China. You give them your patterns, tell them what spec you want (20 factories or so) and get quoted up. THEY CAN DO ANYTHING, all you need is money. Mr Minispares has that. Why get some brummie in the black cunntroy to charge you a fortune to sand cast some stuff when you can get some factory to bang out 2 pallets of them for the same price in China. They are very very amenable. They want your money and the customer is always right.

HOWEVER, if you buy a box of widgets and you look at the codes, you can tell where they've come from. A bit of research and you're back to the manufacturer. One email and you'll find that they'll do whatever you like (like removing the brand name from the tooling) and do a run for you. This is what I suspect has happened with the rosepetals on the market. Yes, they are also chinese, yes, they are subtely different. The common thing is that the vendors will be making a fat mark up.

It's just business and that's the way it works. What I disagree with is saying "These are sand cast in Wolverhampton by Dave and Frank, who's firm has been casting since 1789" When they are blatantly coming in a box with chinese codes on.

Now, I'm not saying that MS or MWS or anyone on ebay is doing this. I'm saying that this does occur with other items and there is nothing stopping them doing it. In fact, they'd be silly not to.

Having said, you always need to buy the most expensive wheels from the best manufacturers with proven quality and proven customer service. If you go on ebay and buy the same wheels, they will probably crack or smash and you might mow down a load of children. So, before you go buying anything chinese and cheap on the internet, think of the children, eh?

[foxy52]

I have experience with Chinese imports. I have been over there and know what the score is. A while ago I went to a big show over in Guangzhou and it peeled my eyeballs.

I use rope access equipment by a company who's name begins with P. It's very expensive and "made in france" by a team of onion wearing, stripy jumpered mountaineers. Only it isn't. I was over at the show looking at other "stuff" and thought WTF!!!! when I noticed a stall from a rescue kit manufacturer with the same stuff. It was the same apart from the trademark was not there. THE SAME. I couldn't believe my eyes. Now, when you go hanging your life off something, you get familiar with it. You know it's every moulding seam and injection point, you know the exact hue and the exact bolt types and the whole look. You know it's the right one. You know that it isn't a copy, but it's come out of the same tooling with the brand name tooling inserts replaced with blanks.

"It is an offense to reproduce, or use the P trademark in any way, anyone caught doing so will be shouted at and spanked".

Oddly enough, at the same time, P put some scare stories out about chinese rip-off kit and showed some photos of some hideously bent, like they had used it to referee a tug of war between a unimog and a ship. It was blatant rubbish.

I've seen the rope, I've seen the food machinery and the fine engineering. Going around the show was like walking around M&S, ASDA, etc, etc, etc.

The big players are about profit, value and quality. Mr Minispares is about Mr Minispares' bank account, not some sort of English business supporting crusade. There is no romance, it's about money and it's about mark up. You get the best stuff, for the biggest mark up in China. You give them your patterns, tell them what spec you want (20 factories or so) and get quoted up. THEY CAN DO ANYTHING, all you need is money. Mr Minispares has that. Why get some brummie in the black cunntroy to charge you a fortune to sand cast some stuff when you can get some factory to bang out 2 pallets of them for the same price in China. They are very very amenable. They want your money and the customer is always right.

HOWEVER, if you buy a box of widgets and you look at the codes, you can tell where they've come from. A bit of research and you're back to the manufacturer. One email and you'll find that they'll do whatever you like (like removing the brand name from the tooling) and do a run for you. This is what I suspect has happened with the rosepetals on the market. Yes, they are also chinese, yes, they are subtely different. The common thing is that the vendors will be making a fat mark up.

It's just business and that's the way it works. What I disagree with is saying "These are sand cast in Wolverhampton by Dave and Frank, who's firm has been casting since 1789" When they are blatantly coming in a box with chinese codes on.

Now, I'm not saying that MS or MWS or anyone on ebay is doing this. I'm saying that this does occur with other items and there is nothing stopping them doing it. In fact, they'd be silly not to.

Having said, you always need to buy the most expensive wheels from the best manufacturers with proven quality and proven customer service. If you go on ebay and buy the same wheels, they will probably crack or smash and you might mow down a load of children. So, before you go buying anything chinese and cheap on the internet, think of the children, eh?

...great post.. always buy the best,dont be fobbed off with copies of anything cos they are never as good...when it comes to mini most if not all would pref to get n o s or good quality used bits and bobs but be prepared to pay a pretty penny... having said that i love my mg6 what a bargain nearly new for the money !!! ....foxy52

[guru_1071]

IThe big players are about profit, value and quality. Mr Minispares is about Mr Minispares' bank account, not some sort of English business supporting crusade. There is no romance, it's about money and it's about mark up. You get the best stuff, for the biggest mark up in China. You give them your patterns, tell them what spec you want (20 factories or so) and get quoted up. THEY CAN DO ANYTHING, all you need is money. Mr Minispares has that. Why get some brummie in the black cunntroy to charge you a fortune to sand cast some stuff when you can get some factory to bang out 2 pallets of them for the same price in China. They are very very amenable. They want your money and the customer is always right.

mr shed


you are talking utter utter arse water here,

keith dodd (mr minispares) is very pasionate about having stuff made in the uk, sure a lot of the generic products sold by any of the larger suppliers will be of unknown origin, but a vast majority of the specalist products MADE by / for minispares are done so within the uk.


the roller rockers, made for minispares by a company ten miles from where im sat,

the alloy four pot calipers, made for minispares by a company five miles from where im sat,

the arden head, fully designed, drawn up, cast by a uk company, machined by a uk company, the whole project done with an open ended development budget, all signed off by 'mr minispares' as he is so passionate and romantic about that particular period of the minis history - not the actions of a hard nosed 'money only' attitude business.... not one single aspect of the arden development was done outside of the uk

i doubt that we will ever, ever make a return on the money invested in the development of the '2012' arden, its cost an absolute fortune.

the only 'large' project that was made abroad was the rosepetal, and this was purely because no uk wheel casting company (not that there are many people in the uk making wheels!) would get involved with the quantity or quality required. once again (and im sick to the back teeth of saying this on this forum) the injection die for the minispares rosepetal belongs to minispares, and the wheels from the injection die are minispares only - the same injection die / factory do not make rose petals for any other supplier - any others are a copy, not made from the same alloy, with the same finish, nuts etc etc.

as for the 'fat mark up' dont forget that minispares have to recover their development costs, all the sand cast ones we had made to check fitments and clearances, the cost of the die tools etc etc. there was 18 months of work before the wheels became avalible for retail sales - all this cost money.

[Pete]

Mr Minispares is about Mr Minispares' bank account, not some sort of English business supporting crusade. There is no romance, it's about money and it's about mark up.

Rich is, as many will agree, spot on. I have to say if you knew anything at all about Keith Dodd you could not have formed such an inaccurate opinion. If anything he's shot himself in the foot so many times trying to do the opposite when he could take the easy route and produce generic poor quality crap in the far east that makes more profit, as any right thinking mercenary business person would do. If he was like that and purely all about profit the parts range at Minispares would be half it's current size.

Believe it or not, and I know this is hard to swallow, you don't have to be an arsehole to make money.

[In the shed]

Let's cut all the crap here in a major way.

A few years ago, I was looking to get a cylinder head cast. I was looking at getting some patterns made and put an add in a "publication" to get some originals to cut up. I had access to a bloke who owned a foundry in Bromsgrove and he was good to go.

I won't mention any names, but I was given the big pointy finger by someone important in the mini industry. It was a case of "I'll make a couple of heads and get my money back on my one" OH NO YOU WON'T!

People outsource things. I'm sure some MS items will be made down the road. I'm sure others (not just MS, but all of the mini parts companies) will use people who either use chinese manufacture, or chinese tooling. It makes total sense. For example, I needed to get some tooling made for a small run of plastic pots, with a view to getting a larger one done. For a 6 item impression, the ally prototype tool was £15k the main run tool would have been more like £25k. This is expensive. Several "British toolmakers" offered us the ability to have a chinese tool made over there for a fraction of the price. We ended up going for the British one which incidentally was scrap in the end.

Trademarks and trading standards are very specific things, people can delude themselves to quite a degree. My SWMBO has a company making various preserves and condiments. This is done locally (Cornwall) and cornish stuff carries a premium. Lots of her competitors get stuff made "up north" or abroad and are a bit weasel-wordy with their labelling. However, if you read it quickly, you'd assume that it was made in cornwall using cornish produce. You made that bit up yourself.

Business is about profit and in tight times with serious competition, if you want the big house and the aston martin, you've got to take on the big guns who are diversifying into your area/smaller runs and you've also got to take on someone working out of a spare room, buying unbranded stuff from China. This is bloody nasty. This is one of the reasons why the highstreet and commerce are in such a mess.

I imagine that Mini Spares companies are doing very badly indeed. There are 20% of the cars on the road from 10 years ago and the people who own them are not as rich as they were. I suppose there will always be a premium for the best stuff, but there will be less of it sold. I would fully expect the big firms who had it pretty easy to be downsizing, firing staff, diversifying and cutting back on stock and unprofitable lines. THEY HAVE TO.

If you are running any business at the moment, you have to apply every trick in the book to get ahead, because your competition will. It drives the prices down and customers have NO loyalty at all.

Hats off to all these people bringing new products to the market. It really is a good thing, a risk and a sign of dedication, but do not mix this sentiment with that of someone who is not primarily focussed about profit.

I don't expect to see Mr MS go bust, because he is Mr Hardball (I have that email somewhere) and this would suggest that his is also Mr Dollar. Anything else is a facade.

[In the shed]

I didn't see the last post.

All I know is that when I was interested in tooling up to make "a head" (not an Arden) I was told not to in a very serious manner.

I do use MS myself and I have no plans on using anyone else. I understand that in commerce you have to charge what you have to charge because rates and tax add up. I applaud the service that Minispares have given and the professional approach they all have. This is clearly a reflection of how Mr Dodd runs his ship.

I imagine that there are all kinds of jackals in the process looking for a piece of the action, but the way things are is that in order to maximise margins, people have to cut costs. Getting the right quality at the right price. China is the way of doing this.

The only reason that I am not buying a set of MS Rosepetals right now is that I want Mg ones.

I wouldn't tar all the stuff which comes out of china as crap. Some is, but dealing with the chinese is a process you can get right with the knowledge and persistence.

I happen to "believe" that quite a lot of "stuff" particularly wheels are all made in China and the replicas and rip offs are probably the same, which is a feature of the money-grubbing and lack of morals of people involved in the process. Whether or not this is done through a 3rd party is largely academic. If you are looking at getting half decent runs of stuff made, Chinese stuff should most certainly be in your check list.

[guru_1071]

Let's cut all the crap here in a major way.

A few years ago, I was looking to get a cylinder head cast. I was looking at getting some patterns made and put an add in a "publication" to get some originals to cut up. I had access to a bloke who owned a foundry in Bromsgrove and he was good to go.

I won't mention any names, but I was given the big pointy finger by someone important in the mini industry. It was a case of "I'll make a couple of heads and get my money back on my one" OH NO YOU WON'T!.

i dont really understand what you are trying to say...

you wanted to cut up and copy an existing head, make three copies (good luck with that with a foundry, the place that casts the ardens for us has a minimum cast run of 25!) and the someone stopped you from doing this? why? did they own the rights to the head you where trying to copy??

there cannot be an embargo on alloy head production for minis, after all there are more styles and types avalible now than ever, the pierce/webcon, the minisport akm, the sc 7 port, the iron weslake, the arden etc etc

if you had the desire to produce a unqiue head, then you would have been able to, theres not, unless im not aware of it, some lizard overlords that dictate what people can or cannot manufacture in the uk.....

as a private individual i must assume that you have pretty deep pockects in wanting to bankroll the maufacture of a set of casting boxes for someting as complicated as a head - i always remember the story about steve soper having to remorgage his house to finance the arden in period - certainly im aware of the eye-watering costs that we have spent getting all the drawings redone and some proper quality casting boxes made - and we had all the period stuff and a load of old heads to use as a starting point!!

I imagine that Mini Spares companies are doing very badly indeed. There are 20% of the cars on the road from 10 years ago and the people who own them are not as rich as they were. I suppose there will always be a premium for the best stuff, but there will be less of it sold. I would fully expect the big firms who had it pretty easy to be downsizing, firing staff, diversifying and cutting back on stock and unprofitable lines. THEY HAVE TO.

If you are running any business at the moment, you have to apply every trick in the book to get ahead, because your competition will. It drives the prices down and customers have NO loyalty at all.

Hats off to all these people bringing new products to the market. It really is a good thing, a risk and a sign of dedication, but do not mix this sentiment with that of someone who is not primarily focussed about profit.

from my perspective you are just about 100% wrong on this, we are doing fine, taking on extra staff, not diversifying in any way etc etc - our weakest point (at mini spares north) is the size of the building - i wish we where a third bigger, to keep more stock in.

i also find that the average buyer of parts has changed, its not the people who are running cars on a shoestring who are the core customer, now its people with income who treat the mini as a luxuary, who are racing/rallying the cars - the costs are (just about) secondary to the avalibility and quality of the parts.

I don't expect to see Mr MS go bust, because he is Mr Hardball (I have that email somewhere) and this would suggest that his is also Mr Dollar. Anything else is a facade.

as any business owner keith will protect his busines, and through his own (and others!) hard work he has built a nice big business with the rewards that come from that, but to assert that he has no passion or enthuiasm for minis and thats its just a 'facade' is just offensive to be honest.

[guru_1071]

I happen to "believe" that quite a lot of "stuff" particularly wheels are all made in China and the replicas and rip offs are probably the same,

ive said this before, and im bound to say it again (as noboby beleives me...... )

take a minispares rosepetal

now take a midland wheels rosepetal

lay the two next to each other and compare the castings and the casting marks......

it will very quickly become apparent that the mws ones casting marks are far more indistinct as when they copied the wheel (which chris from mws readily admits to doing) the casting info became feint

this is before you look at the poorer quality finish, nuts etc etc

they are not the same wheel, ours are designed for the appendix k racing boys, the mws ones a decent enough road wheel.

[mk1coopers]

I've got to agree with Rich and Pete here, I am more interested in the quality of a part than its price (though that has to be competitive, and within my budget) and with anything I buy (house / car / ect) I would rather wait until I can afford a quality item knowing that it will be fit for purpose, sometimes you can get exactly the same part with the same branding from a motor factor as you can from a dealer with the only difference being the box it comes in (recent example a flywheel for a VW, £600 from the dealer, exactly the same part with the same markings as the one that came out from CAF for £250) Minispares are very good on their website for pointing out if they consider a part is budget or higher quality, allowing people who are still running the cars as everyday transport and those who are lucky enough to use them as weekend toys to make their own choice as to what they want to buy, we are lucky with our cars that there is a good supply of parts and that people are prepared to invest to produce more for us

[ronie]

According to the MS webshop, their version of the rosepetal is currently only available on Special Order. When I contacted them they said they were out of stock.

Any news when they will be available again?

[guru_1071]

Any news when they will be available again?

ronie


Mid January

[dazibee]

Politics aside..... What is nice here is that as Mini Owners, we now have choice. Two years ago no Rosepetals available except ratty old ones on ebay if you were lucky. Now at least two types are available. An 8/10 quality wheel and a 10/10 quality. A wheel to suit all budgets. That must be a good thing. Cosmics are now available again. Mcnallys too I believe. I'm glad companies are having a go. You pay your money and take your choice.

[Pete]

Two years ago no Rosepetals available except ratty old ones on ebay if you were lucky.

Not quite true, there were several others available inc Works Wheels and Vortz but the WW jobs had to be imported into the UK and Vortz were only available to order to a select few. In some respects you could say that made them more desirable !

[251 ENG]

Did anyone on here buy the 3 original 12" rosepetals on Marktplaats ?

[foxy52]

Two years ago no Rosepetals available except ratty old ones on ebay if you were lucky.

Not quite true, there were several others available inc Works Wheels and Vortz but the WW jobs had to be imported into the UK and Vortz were only available to order to a select few. In some respects you could say that made them more desirable !

...yr not wrong there pete,..i tried to buy a set of vortz rose petals a few years back to be greeted with a reply second attempt and no interest whatsoever from maker/seller reg a response to my enq......i decided to stick with my existing orig alloys..good thread this one.. as prev stated many more copies of orig 60,s designs are now freely available....but nothing made now is of quite the same quality when it comes to repros.. whats more interesting that wheel designs come and go.. eg starmags !!!.. but nothing compares to anything like,minilite,d1,s,cosmic,black mamba,revo,s,jap magna etc etc.... foxy52.

[AustinSuperSeven]

Quality and proved production for me any day....
Trying to save £250 on a product that has been copied is questionable, if a company is not going to invest in design then what rubbish could the wheels be made out of!
Safety should be in the forefront of everyone's mind, not saving a few quid on what i feel is one of the most important parts of our cars......
Brake calipers from Aldi's anyone....

[Prooij]

Did anyone on here buy the 3 original 12" rosepetals on Marktplaats ?

I don`t know, but I haven`t bought them, maybe UHR850 does....it seems that they are sold.