Can We All Take Stock About Our Knowledge

General Chat with an emphasis on BMC Minis & Other iconic cars of the 1960's. Includes information on MK1 Action days.
Supersonic
Posts: 2091
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:25 pm
Location: Crossgar County Down Northern Ireland

Re: Can We All Take Stock About Our Knowledge

Post by Supersonic »

AndyPen wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:31 am Thanks Nick, I just found it very sad to read that someone with knowledge doesn't want to share when others challenge it.

850 man, I am guessing you have had more than one bad experience that has cut you to the core, but unless we challenge experts we often don't really learn. I wrote an entire PhD that challenged very authoritative published works, whilst I respected what they wrote I saw an opportunity to explore further and as it turned out, brought to light things they didn't know.

I have forgotten so much about the mini that I used to know when we rallied them, but thanks to this forum and those who are willing to share, I am remembering more and more stuff as time goes on.

So my thanks to those who already share, and very polite request to ask you to offer your views to the likes of me when I get stuck.
Thanks Andy and Nick for your comments.

I’ve always thought we must pass on our knowledge to those coming behind us that have an interest. In my lifetime I’ve seen so much knowledge lost in the industry I worked in for 41 years. I’m a founder member of the 1100 Club which started in 1985 and it is still going strong. Regrettably in the last two or three years we have lost great people who carried a wealth of knowledge and some of them like Allan G Webb worked on the design of the ADO16.

In regards to one post on this thread, my old headmaster used to say; diplomacy was thinking twice before saying nothing. :D



Alan
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850man
Posts: 277
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:08 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia.

Re: Can We All Take Stock About Our Knowledge

Post by 850man »

nick@dunsdale wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:22 am
850man wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:12 am

Maybe i got out of bed the wrong side today or I am just in a bad mood, 850man i am sorry i find your post pointless to this thread and the very antithesis of the original posters point, your post serves no purpose and just reduces the chance of those that lurk to post. I have no doubt you have a huge amount of knowledge, but your post comes across very bitter. I have taken some time to disect your post, this is how it comes across to me.
Sorry if this offends just my humble opion

Nick, thank you for the feedback.
I took from the original post that it seems that there are many very knowledgeable people out there that don't post on forums, and that the people that do are usually quite happy to listen and learn from those that wish to share their experiences. But occasionally someone comes along who big note themselves and belittles people asking legitimate questions and ends up stopping people from commenting. This I have experienced many times,and yes, I am over it. So these days I rarely comment unless I know the answer, or I am calling out BS
It usually costs them plenty of money to have the mistakes they have made rectified by the specialist Mini workshops. Some of which are just as bad as the internet experts, causing just as many problems. Thats ok, I get paid well to fix other workshops mistakes.
Really I mean REALLY !! , have you any idea how this comes across
Yes, Arrogant.
But unfortunately its true. I work everyday fixing Minis. And everyday I have to fix mistakes made by people that should know better. It is disappointing and often I genuinely feel sorry for customers that have spent thousands of dollars on restorations by "experts" only to tell them that there new engine has low oil pressure and the gearbox crunches 2nd.
So I now sit back and let people make fools of themselves
The very reason new posters are afraid to post responses.

I have never discouraged anyone from asking questions on a forum. I help when I can and for many years I have worked on friends cars for nothing. I don't profess to know everything, every day I still learn something new. I have no reason to make people afraid to post.



Occasionally I will respond to a forum question when I have absolute knowledge and expertise. And factual evidence to back up my answer.
Off putting this suggests one should only post when they have definitive knowledge on the subject, and perhaps not post a theory or thought they have on the subject in hand.

Yes. Exactly. Don't post a theory or thought.
People want answers to questions, not other peoples ideas of what they would do.
Thats how ball joints get done up with a shifter and wheels fall off because of a metric PCD.
If you don't know the correct answer, dont make one up. Thats how people get hurt.

Sadly I see far too often posts from these so called "experts" taken as gospel by fellow forum members. People read someone's response and because of a high post count or a fancy avatar they automatically believe that said person is knowledgeable.
This appears a directed at regular posters thus off-putting new people to regularly post

It is. To many times members with high post counts belittle new members. Its not a competition, you are not going to get a Crown when you hit 5000. These forums are a social outlet for like minded people to talk about the cars they love. But some people think the more they post, the more "expert" they become.

if you bother to fact check (a wonderful invention called "Google" can help with this) you will often find that these "Experts" are simply telling lies, or only giving part of a much bigger story. Or quite simply have a pile of workshop manuals, tech bulletins, documents that they quote from. This does not make them knowledgeable people, it merely shows that they can cut and paste. Taking credit for other peoples work is also quite prevalent among these "experts"
Condescending and repetitive

Its true though. Fact check, be critical. So often information given out is incorrect and believed to be true. Its happening more and more and no one seems to care.


these Narcissists just continue to make fools of themselves over and over again.
Extraordinarily strong and uncalled for where we are just a bunch of guys and girls who share a love for the little brick, there will always be people whom think they know best, that’s life !! everyone is different we are all individual and prone to saying the wrong thing now and again

Is it? Yes everyone is individual and get things wrong now and then, but a Narcissist believes everything he says is correct and believes his own lies. Forums don't need people like them.

due to Marks diligence it is the best Mini forum available
One little gem buried in the post
Rocket Scientist
InnoCooperExport
Posts: 188
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:44 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Can We All Take Stock About Our Knowledge

Post by InnoCooperExport »

Or quite simply have a pile of workshop manuals, tech bulletins, documents that they quote from. This does not make them knowledgeable people
I've often been accused of learning from books or other people. Never quite understood how else one is supposed to? One of the strangest sneers I ever got was "well you can only do that because so-and-so taught you how to do that". Uh okay? I agree experience is extremely valuable but it doesn't make the WSM wrong by definition.

I have a good friend who has been working on cars since he was a nipper, he is nearly 80 now and often jests when we're chatting "where did you learn that, from a book?". Which mostly comes from when I'm checking end float or tolerances he can do it by feel and sheer experience (in his words) and I tend to want to check it with feelers or a dial gauge checked against the value given in the WSM. It doesn't help that he's horribly dyslexic and comes from a generation where that wasn't a thing and you were just thick instead. But he is a wizard with metal and there's little about big Healeys he doesn't know, I still go to him if I'm stuck on something, but I haven't burned my reference books just yet.
Of course I know what a dipstick is, you get called something often enough you look it up!
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850man
Posts: 277
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:08 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia.

Re: Can We All Take Stock About Our Knowledge

Post by 850man »

InnoCooperExport wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:05 pm
Or quite simply have a pile of workshop manuals, tech bulletins, documents that they quote from. This does not make them knowledgeable people
I've often been accused of learning from books or other people. Never quite understood how else one is supposed to? One of the strangest sneers I ever got was "well you can only do that because so-and-so taught you how to do that". Uh okay? I agree experience is extremely valuable but it doesn't make the WSM wrong by definition.

I have a good friend who has been working on cars since he was a nipper, he is nearly 80 now and often jests when we're chatting "where did you learn that, from a book?". Which mostly comes from when I'm checking end float or tolerances he can do it by feel and sheer experience (in his words) and I tend to want to check it with feelers or a dial gauge checked against the value given in the WSM. It doesn't help that he's horribly dyslexic and comes from a generation where that wasn't a thing and you were just thick instead. But he is a wizard with metal and there's little about big Healeys he doesn't know, I still go to him if I'm stuck on something, but I haven't burned my reference books just yet.
I have hundreds of books. Many years spent reading and learning from them. I continue to collect BMC documents whenever I can, and if I cannot find what I want I have a good friend that has a BMC book collection that is unbelievable. I love them, and cherish my books. Research and development in written form is king and I continue to learn everyday from it.
I too know people with many years experience, guys that were racing minis, developing and making 1600cc engines, 6 speed gearboxes, 150mph sports sedans before I was born. I have worked for, and with a number of very intelligent people over the years that have 0 interest in forums. These guys are ageing now, and their experiences and knowledge is slowly being lost. When I can I sit down and talk with these guys to soak in what they have to say. Working with them, being shown how to do it was invaluable.

My point is I don't have piles of books sitting next to my computer waiting to answer questions to increase my post count and make myself look like something I am not.
If I genuinely know the answer I respond. If not, I say nothing.
Rocket Scientist
Colin a
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2020 1:02 pm

Re: Can We All Take Stock About Our Knowledge

Post by Colin a »

Hi all, thank you for your comments Alan, I remember Brian Stevenson,I think a lot of the best riders were Irish, they do proper road racing over there, I could talk to you for hours with you about bikes but this is not the place, as for taking advice I will take it from anyone with more knowledge than me even though I am 77 now, especially on minis, I specialised in imps all the time they were being made, keep up the good work there are a few things I need to know so will be back on sometime with a few numbers, thanks again Colin a.
nick@dunsdale
Posts: 729
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 3:30 pm
Location: Scottish Borders

Re: Can We All Take Stock About Our Knowledge

Post by nick@dunsdale »

850man wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:46 pm
nick@dunsdale wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:22 am
850man wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:12 am

Maybe i got out of bed the wrong side today or I am just in a bad mood, 850man i am sorry i find your post pointless to this thread and the very antithesis of the original posters point, your post serves no purpose and just reduces the chance of those that lurk to post. I have no doubt you have a huge amount of knowledge, but your post comes across very bitter. I have taken some time to disect your post, this is how it comes across to me.
Sorry if this offends just my humble opion

Nick, thank you for the feedback.
I took from the original post that it seems that there are many very knowledgeable people out there that don't post on forums, and that the people that do are usually quite happy to listen and learn from those that wish to share their experiences. But occasionally someone comes along who big note themselves and belittles people asking legitimate questions and ends up stopping people from commenting. This I have experienced many times,and yes, I am over it. So these days I rarely comment unless I know the answer, or I am calling out BS
It usually costs them plenty of money to have the mistakes they have made rectified by the specialist Mini workshops. Some of which are just as bad as the internet experts, causing just as many problems. Thats ok, I get paid well to fix other workshops mistakes.
Really I mean REALLY !! , have you any idea how this comes across
Yes, Arrogant.
But unfortunately its true. I work everyday fixing Minis. And everyday I have to fix mistakes made by people that should know better. It is disappointing and often I genuinely feel sorry for customers that have spent thousands of dollars on restorations by "experts" only to tell them that there new engine has low oil pressure and the gearbox crunches 2nd.
So I now sit back and let people make fools of themselves
The very reason new posters are afraid to post responses.

I have never discouraged anyone from asking questions on a forum. I help when I can and for many years I have worked on friends cars for nothing. I don't profess to know everything, every day I still learn something new. I have no reason to make people afraid to post.



Occasionally I will respond to a forum question when I have absolute knowledge and expertise. And factual evidence to back up my answer.
Off putting this suggests one should only post when they have definitive knowledge on the subject, and perhaps not post a theory or thought they have on the subject in hand.

Yes. Exactly. Don't post a theory or thought.
People want answers to questions, not other peoples ideas of what they would do.
Thats how ball joints get done up with a shifter and wheels fall off because of a metric PCD.
If you don't know the correct answer, dont make one up. Thats how people get hurt.

Sadly I see far too often posts from these so called "experts" taken as gospel by fellow forum members. People read someone's response and because of a high post count or a fancy avatar they automatically believe that said person is knowledgeable.
This appears a directed at regular posters thus off-putting new people to regularly post

It is. To many times members with high post counts belittle new members. Its not a competition, you are not going to get a Crown when you hit 5000. These forums are a social outlet for like minded people to talk about the cars they love. But some people think the more they post, the more "expert" they become.

if you bother to fact check (a wonderful invention called "Google" can help with this) you will often find that these "Experts" are simply telling lies, or only giving part of a much bigger story. Or quite simply have a pile of workshop manuals, tech bulletins, documents that they quote from. This does not make them knowledgeable people, it merely shows that they can cut and paste. Taking credit for other peoples work is also quite prevalent among these "experts"
Condescending and repetitive

Its true though. Fact check, be critical. So often information given out is incorrect and believed to be true. Its happening more and more and no one seems to care.


these Narcissists just continue to make fools of themselves over and over again.
Extraordinarily strong and uncalled for where we are just a bunch of guys and girls who share a love for the little brick, there will always be people whom think they know best, that’s life !! everyone is different we are all individual and prone to saying the wrong thing now and again

Is it? Yes everyone is individual and get things wrong now and then, but a Narcissist believes everything he says is correct and believes his own lies. Forums don't need people like them.

due to Marks diligence it is the best Mini forum available
One little gem buried in the post


85Oman thanks for your candid response i do respect people who say what they feel is correct, even though i dont always agree 👍👍
The best repairs go un-noticed
Supersonic
Posts: 2091
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:25 pm
Location: Crossgar County Down Northern Ireland

Re: Can We All Take Stock About Our Knowledge

Post by Supersonic »

Nick, I have to say I agree with what you said in your last post. Nothing wrong with strong views and this should be respected. But no one should be discourteous or ill-mannered to anyone on any forum.

Another thing my old Headmaster use to say; “a great deal of what we see depends on what we are looking for” ;)

Alan
AndyPen
Posts: 1919
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:55 pm
Location: South Wales

Re: Can We All Take Stock About Our Knowledge

Post by AndyPen »

I'd just add a caveat, and it simply this, if someone doesn't know the answer but can make a sensible suggestion I really appreciate their ideas, especially when problems are unusual ones.

Clearly as pointed out by 850 if something is dangerous that should be explained too, but I hope most of us are too sensible to try dodgy tactics.

So I am not always looking for the 'right' answers, but often simply hints and tips. The recent one on using a strand of thread to position the clevis pin is a great example.

Many old hands have stuff that isn't in books ;-)
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