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Problems concerning reclaimed registrations. What should be done?
1. The government (i.e. DVLA) should tighten up the system. It has been too lax for too long. 17%  17%  [ 18 ]
2. Any change to the system should be applied retrospectively. 8%  8%  [ 8 ]
3. The involvement of cars clubs vetting applications needs to be substantially tightened up. 15%  15%  [ 16 ]
4. The vehicle and supporting evidence should be physically inspected at the time an application to reclaim a registration number is first made. 15%  15%  [ 16 ]
5. Major parts should be officially die-stamped before any restoration work begins. 1%  1%  [ 1 ]
6. A vehicle should once again be physically inspected when it is ready to be MOT’d. 9%  9%  [ 9 ]
7. A substantial fee (£100 or more) should be paid for any inspection. 4%  4%  [ 4 ]
8. A better system be put in place to report to the DVLA dubious reclaimed registrations. 14%  14%  [ 15 ]
9. A recorded chassis or VIN number should show that a re-shell has taken place. 12%  12%  [ 13 ]
10. Who cares, it doesn’t concern a vehicle I own. Leave the system exactly as it is. (No need to answer any of the other 9 questions.) 5%  5%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 105
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:19 pm 
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surfblue63 wrote:
Its CUT 7. This number was used by Dick Protheroe on a few E-Types back in the 1960's. Fortunately the chassis numbers were recorded (unlike most BMC works cars!), so the actual cars can be properly traced.


Recorded by who?


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:44 pm 
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Supersonic wrote:
The car albeit never registered by me or this bloke I sold it to turned up in the nineties in concourse condition again for sale by the same dealer. Whoever owns this complete ringer now mustn’t know the original car still exists over here in very original condition. I’m sure there are many more situations the same :?:

I know of a dealer who was heavily involved with the export of restored mk1 Minis and Mini Coopers to Japan during the "Japanese Mini Mania" of the 1980s and 1990s. For every original mk1 Mini that he sent over, he sent it over with a duplicate V5c and kept the original. I wonder how many of those "genuine" Minis are now on the road in the UK?


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:53 pm 
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We must not get confused between registration numbers and identities, which are two different things. I was recently told a story of a reg number that was originally on a works mini that was written off, then appeared in the late 70's on a Porsche, then re-appeared in the 80's on a now famous works mini replica ( proporting to be the original ), owned by a celebrity. Perhaps that particular reg. number ended up as a cherished number and was simply transferred ?


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:28 pm 
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spoon.450 wrote:
We must not get confused between registration numbers and identities, which are two different things. I was recently told a story of a reg number that was originally on a works mini that was written off, then appeared in the late 70's on a Porsche, then re-appeared in the 80's on a now famous works mini replica ( proporting to be the original ), owned by a celebrity. Perhaps that particular reg. number ended up as a cherished number and was simply transferred ?


Reminds me of the (in)famous Royal car that appears to have been built out of a cherished transfer. That's not a new practice!


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:46 pm 
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Thanks to everyone who has responded so far to this. There have been some interesting comments and observations. However overall I sense that the vast majority of people are now sick to the back teeth with it all and are more than happy to leave things alone. They are saying that it’s not their problem so why should they get involved? In other words let sleeping dogs lie. Furthermore they are saying that if people can get away with it, so what, that’s their business. Of course that attitude might change a tad if they end up at some stage being on the end of the deception! If I can borrow from Pete’s excellent analogy about the painter Lowry, as long as the painting looks like a Lowry right down to the last brush stroke then who cares? It’s better still if the painting hangs in a well known art gallery (and if that were a car, what we would call a respected car show.) What the car looks like now and how it is accurately presented as it was around the time that it was originally constructed, seems to overshadow the fact that it might look good but it has very little in common with the original. In other words it’s an excellent re-creation that they applaud but they acknowledge that it’s not a restoration in the true sense of the word.

A fellow forum member has said to me that he thinks that where there is concern about a particular car it should be reported to the police and not the DVLA. Maybe that’s true but whether it is the police or the DVLA, just how does the average individual do that? Human nature being what it is, how many people are likely to trundle off down to their local police station or write to the DVLA saying ‘I wish to inform you about a car with the registration number ABC 123’? In any case just what information do they have to provide to back up their statement? Hearsay isn’t good enough. It’s all good in theory but I can’t see it happening in practice.

I note that on the Crimestoppers website there is the facility to report a crime anonymously. Something like that and especially for car fraud, as that’s what we are really talking about here, might be the answer.

Car clubs have their part to play in resolving the problem but if they play the part of the poacher and not the gamekeeper then it is of very little help. Unless there is a regime change that status quo will prevail in the clubs not playing the game.

As things stand I can’t see anything changing and the argument will just rumble on.

There are probably loads of forum members who read the comments in this thread and generally nod in approval before moving on to read the next thread rather than add their voice to the argument one way or another. I’m tempting fate by saying so but it’s true, is it not?!

Graham


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:53 pm 
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There'\s absolutely no point in reporting it to the cops as they will say, at the outset that it is a matter for the DVLA or the civil courts UNLESS there is criminality. And in any case they will most reasonably argue, at the end of the day, it's a victimless crime. Someone might be out of pocket, but that doesn't make it CRIMINALLY out of pocket.

They've already got too much on their plate here in Oxford according to the local paper and the crime commissa (who is looking for a deputy now, due to his work load) stopping and booking motorists on the Botley Road into rthe City, for not wearing seat belts! Now there's a victimless crime if ever I saw one!


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:56 pm 
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Bodge wrote:
Supersonic wrote:
The car albeit never registered by me or this bloke I sold it to turned up in the nineties in concourse condition again for sale by the same dealer. Whoever owns this complete ringer now mustn’t know the original car still exists over here in very original condition. I’m sure there are many more situations the same :?:

I know of a dealer who was heavily involved with the export of restored mk1 Minis and Mini Coopers to Japan during the "Japanese Mini Mania" of the 1980s and 1990s. For every original mk1 Mini that he sent over, he sent it over with a duplicate V5c and kept the original. I wonder how many of those "genuine" Minis are now on the road in the UK?


This practice of saving the paperwork isn't confined to Minis when exported abroad as I've discovered with a couple of Unipowers but it does make me curious as to how the cars were exported in the first place cos I sold three cars to Japan and they all went with their logbooks. Apparently Maruyama sent someone I know a copy of the logbook for 777MCG, which shares the chassis number with 850 MCG, which was another Hales creation. The old logbook for Maruyama's blue Minisprint UKB 8H ( https://blog-001.west.edge.storage-yaho ... 1338282886 ) also appeared on Ebay a few years ago. There's a surf blue Morris Cooper S in Ireland that has a twin with the same chassis number in Japan (ex AA test car), then there was the ex Ian Walker Racing 1071 who's paperwork turned up on Ebay a few years ago (exported from the Midlands ;) ;) ), then there's two 11 NYBs, these few examples are just the tip of a huge iceberg and it's only because the Japanese are not selling them back to the UK and do not engage with us online that the iceberg has been relatively undiscovered!! It's a scandal that's certainly not confined to cars exported to the far east with plenty of bent car over here that have been built using the reclaimed IDs of previously scrapped cars, sometimes previously exported cars. I tried to buy a Radford 1071 a few years ago from the U.S only to find the guy that originally exported it in the 90s(?) had kept the 1071 logbook and exported it on an 850 logbook!. There's certainly other cars exported to the U.S with issues there's no doubt doubt but all these toxic cars certainly seem to eminate from the 80s/90s export boom of classic cars and the money that unscrupulous individuals saw that they could make from it.

Some people might not want to admit there's even a problem or certain Mini clubs for that matter as I've learned to my huge disapointment but these skeletons do have a habit of reapearing on a regular basis that were buried back in the 80s and 90s!


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:58 pm 
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Peter Laidler wrote:
There'\s absolutely no point in reporting it to the cops as they will say, at the outset that it is a matter for the DVLA or the civil courts UNLESS there is criminality.


Didn't the Police themselves inspect a number of cars back in the day for the DVLA with regard to plate re-issue? Didn't you do that Peter? And is that something they still do or is it just authorised clubs?


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:01 pm 
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Yes, but they were generally formerly written off cars or 'otherwise contentious' including those previously regarded as 'dormant' seeking re-registration


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:09 pm 
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Pete, 10 out of 10 for stating ‘there’s a surf blue Morris Cooper S in Ireland that has a twin with the same chassis number in Japan (ex AA test car)’ This car is still in Northern Ireland up the country from me but used to be in a Mini collection beside me as you would know. And now the surf blue car I use to own is up for sale also a Morris Cooper S 1275 model take your pick. That exAA test car has been up for sale for 17 years I wonder why :(

The same bloke who owns one of these surf blue cars also has a rally Cooper S (ex Alec Poole car :lol: :lol: :lol: )

Alan


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