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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:27 pm 
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The following comments are written in very general terms and are not about any particular car or person. That’s deliberate. If you wish add a comment to the thread and to save things possibly getting a bit out of hand, can I suggest that you do the same. If we start getting specific about certain cars and their history it’s more than likely that Mark would end up deleting the thread as has happened before. I wouldn’t then blame him if he did.

So what’s this all about? The whole argument about reclaimed registration numbers from the DVLA and with it the question of establishing the true identity of a vehicle, will run and run until the DVLA does something about it. Yes, the DVLA and no-one else. Individuals, car clubs, and even organisations can say what they like but until the DVLA sorts it out the problem will continue to fester. It is the DVLA, and no-one else, who has re-issued the registration numbers based on the evidence presented to them. If that evidence on further inspection by the DVLA now turns out to be suspect and should not have been accepted in the first place, then it is once again the DVLA who needs to act. Much as Mini enthusiasts might gripe, at the end of the day it is for the DVLA to sort it out. Remember a registration number ‘belongs’ to the DVLA and it is the DVLA who ‘loans it out’ to be displayed on a vehicle. No individual actually ‘owns’ a registration number, all they have is official permission to display the number on a vehicle. Some would go so far to say that the DVLA gives permission to display a series of letters and numbers in a certain order, that's all.

It’s a subject that continues to irritate many Mini enthusiasts. For a number of years there has been comment on and off on various forums including this one but it doesn’t end there. Add in private chats and emails and it’s clear that feelings run deep. What really seems to annoy people is that nothing seems to be done about it. It’s therefore understandable that the thorny subject keeps popping up on forums such as this.

It’s a shame that the DVLA doesn’t better publicise how someone can contact them should there be concern over a particular vehicle. Having done a bit of Googling I found this:

https://insidedvla.blog.gov.uk/2015/05/29/behind-the-scenes-with-dvlas-counter-fraud-intelligence-team/

The feature seems to be about vehicle and licence fraud in general. Whether there is a more direct way of informing the DVLA about concern over a particular vehicle I don’t know. Is there perhaps a dedicated email address that people can write to?

Of course what we don’t know is how hard the DVLA is working to tackle the problem. Remember it just doesn’t concern Minis, it covers cover all sorts of vehicles including Fords, Jaguars and the like. Rightly or wrongly the sniping will continue over vehicles that are being presented as the original whilst there is conjecture, rather than outright proof, that they aren’t what they are made out to be. I say once again that it is the DVLA that is the kingpin in all of this. However perhaps the DVLA is a government department that is either too weak or doesn't have the resources, to really get to the root of the problem. If that’s true, much as people might moan, at the end of the day they might just have to put up with it.

We all know that the sale of logbooks is part of the problem and recently I spotted something on Facebook. It’s a government petition that has been set up by a guy who does not appear to be a Mini or even a BMC/BL enthusiast. In some ways that is a good thing. It is further proof that the problem isn't just confined to the Mini and crosses a broad spectrum of makes and models. That should help the petition gain momentum. With more publicity perhaps the 10,000 signatures needed can be achieved although at the moment he still has a long way to go. Here's the link https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/204247 if you want to find out more.

Do other forum members share my view or am I wide of the mark in what I say?


Graham


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:19 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 3:12 pm
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Ever since I had a pedal car with a personal registration number on it I have taken an interest in special plates. Imagine my surprise to follow a car, many years ago with the registration plate OBO 110X; I kid you not and the spacing had not been altered either.
Cherished, reclaimed, retained, transferred the list is endless. So I thought I would look up the most expensive cherished plate sold by the DVLA to discover it was 25 O and further searching revealed it was registered in 2017 onto a 2015 Ferrari with a 6.3l Electric Hybrid engine. NOT on a 250 swb! :o :roll:
Oh and I almost forgot Historic.
Interesting that the DVLA actually retain ownership of the number, glad I a was not able to pay close to £0.5m for the plate!
Hey ho, the plot thickens.
Cliff


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:21 pm 
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graham

your post is vague

the DVLA will only reissue a registration mark if the owner of the car is able to prove that the specific mark was once allocated to it, for this to happen the owner will have to have the required V5c to prove ownership of the car (and the car, obviously) . nothing wrong with this, underhand, illegal in any way.

the DVLA will only reissue registration marks if it can be proven to have been allocated to a particular vehicle in the past. they probably do this hundreds of times a week as private plates are moved around from car to car. nothing thorny about this at all.

as for the more contentious issue of reclaimed V5cs, then its not really fair to blame the DVLA when this happens, for years the DVLA relied and trusted nominated car clubs / private individuals to inspect cars that people when trying to claim the paperwork for (in many cases perfectly legitimately) - remember the DVLA are not classic car experts, its not in their remit, they are a government department responsible for keeping the records, nothing more.

I would imagine the costs for the DVLA to set up some sort of 'heritage department' who had the knowledge, ability, and means to inspect every single application for a 'new' V5c would be horrific - it has already been proven through the actions of several high profile cases involving pre war classics that the owners clubs just cannot be trusted when it comes to this.

the only way that this problem will ever be solved will be for owners clubs to be more honest, more strict and more through about what has/is going on, certainly the Bentley drivers club have had a top down restructure of their committee after the fracas that they had last year due to some allegations that where made about them colluding with members to have cars 'recreated'

all the DVLA can do in cases like this is point out that they are not marque experts and relied on the word of experts to authenticate cars, I doubt the DVLA would wish to get involved any further than that as it leaves them wide open to legal recourse - look at the issues (and costs) that Bonhams have had with that Ferrari recently that had more than one person claiming original ownership.

I would like to think that any proper specialist car club will have carried out due diligence and looked at any liabilities that they may have from any claims or allegations made that may occur in the future, I know that the Bentley drivers club where at the level of a QC to make sure that their 'house practices' where fully compliant with the law, as this was demanded and expected by the vast majority of the people who are members of the club, as they went through the process they where fully above board with the members, posting out clear, legal and well written letters detailing all the issues and how they hoped to resolve them. from memory it was felt that there was issues with about FIVE cars that had been incorrectly verified (either on purpose, or by accident) but they where determined to 'put it to bed'.

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should you wish, you can contact me on rich@minispares.com

'long beard boss'


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:25 pm 
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hanlminiman wrote:
the registration plate OBO 110X;


its still in use!

https://cazana.com/uk/car/OBO110X

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should you wish, you can contact me on rich@minispares.com

'long beard boss'


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:37 pm 
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rich@minispares.com wrote:
I know that the Bentley drivers club where at the level of a QC to make sure that their 'house practices' where fully compliant with the law, as this was demanded and expected by the vast majority of the people who are members of the club, as they went through the process they where fully above board with the members, posting out clear, legal and well written letters detailing all the issues and how they hoped to resolve them. from memory it was felt that there was issues with about FIVE cars that had been incorrectly verified (either on purpose, or by accident) but they where determined to 'put it to bed'.


Yes - the practises of using RC numbers (and other methods) were challenged but there were way too many members with moody cars to allow that to prevail and several senior members with a serious financial interest - the challenge got kicked out and the ball continues to roll.

Something in the order of 200 new chassis have been built to date.

Put to bed my arse...... :lol:

If you get onto the liquidators quick there is probably a pile of union jack stickers to be had cheap at the Fruit Farm


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:20 pm 
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rich@minispares.com wrote:
hanlminiman wrote:
the registration plate OBO 110X;


its still in use!

https://cazana.com/uk/car/OBO110X

Really! Funny that it is shown as 1st registration in 2014. I saw it on a new car in the early 1980's. Ummmm!
Talking of Bentleys. I saw a really nice Le Mans type multi litre this year but when I got home and checked the registration number it wasn't the model I thought it was!
;)


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:58 pm 
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hanlminiman wrote:
rich@minispares.com wrote:
hanlminiman wrote:
the registration plate OBO 110X;


its still in use!

https://cazana.com/uk/car/OBO110X

Really! Funny that it is shown as 1st registration in 2014. I saw it on a new car in the early 1980's. Ummmm!
Talking of Bentleys. I saw a really nice Le Mans type multi litre this year but when I got home and checked the registration number it wasn't the model I thought it was!
;)


the date of first reg will be that of the vehicle that its currently attached to - its a bit of an anomaly with the cazana system

a lot of those le mans reps are based on post war chassis, you need a very sharp eye to spot them as they are very good copies (some are vile as well) there is very little left of the original post war car, most of them use the Rolls Royce B60 engine as its a very economic (and easy to make look something like).

they are swopping all the axels, brakes, moving the engines and gearboxes back in the chassis.

so much of the stuff is available new though, you can virtually buy a brand new turn key WO Bentley engine if your pockets are deep enough!

one of the people doing it got busted for using Rolls Royce 20/25 chassis (as they are relatively cheap) and making them look like le mans reps (all be it the chassis are much more spindley, but they are of the right (ish) period and have original leaf sprung suspension) - he was selling them as Bentleys, which got him a rebuke from Rolls-Royce

all fun and games!

normally the trick with le-mans Bentleys is just look at them

if they are tatty, patined, used and abused, then they are the originals ones

if they are perfect, shiney, start looking at the little details like chassis numbers... 8-)

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should you wish, you can contact me on rich@minispares.com

'long beard boss'


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:49 pm 
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I say that it's down to money - and costs. The DVLA are by definition an agency who work and act solely on the behalf of the Minister or Transport or whatever it calls itself. They also know the any decision that they take can be - and are - challenged in the courts. They simnply will not risk the cost of investigating a case (it's not a Police matter unless there is criminality involved), taking it to court where it'll be challenged by the real experts out there. And if they lose, it sets a legal precedence thereafter. And then there's the costs............... Sometimes, it's best to let sleeping dogs lie. Especially, when................ One day I'll tell you about the blind leading the blind and inept 'investigation' into an imported Lotus Cortina. And all he wanted was a correct age related plate......., nothing fancy, nothing personal, not particularly the original that he had documentation to prove, just a correct-for-the-year H (or J ?) plate


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:07 pm 
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Graham, you make a very reasonable point in asking to keep cars and their owners out of this conversation. However, I think participants want to discuss particular cars and it can be very controversial with many holding very different viewpoints. Key to this issue is maintaining civilised and polite discussions. A wide range of views and experience is very valuable to any forum. If you restrict what can be discussed on these forums you also curtail free speech. Do we want to end up with forums that are just technical question and answer platforms. Is this what we all want?

I totally agree with you that no one individual owns a registration number. These registration numbers are an asset of the DVLA without question. This however is only part of the problem to be honest. Strip away these famous registrations and the same individuals will still maintain they have the authentic cars. Their integrity and the veracity of their cars means little to nothing is what I’ve seen I very much regret to say.

Only last month, when you get a pensioner and club member at a major classic car show claiming his car is genuinely the oldest works Mini in existence and a long established Mini club giving a press release to support his claim beggar’s belief. It did not survive, Peter Browning in his book recorded that car was scrapped and it was photographed by the works team when it was totalled. Surely this club and this pensioner must know this car’s history? All many want is the truth to be told about these cars? Is that too much to ask?

Alan


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:14 pm 
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I guess I have to come in here at some point.

1. All registration numbers are the property of The Secretary of State for Transport.

2. I think you will find the car you are referring to has been claimed be the oldest works Cooper. Whether you agree rather depends upon the criteria you use. I wonder whether the owner is precious about this claim?

3. I find the DVLA's role to be quite ambiguous. It actually auctions the right to use numbers, not to own them. And thereby supports an economy of dealers selling them.

4. Just say the registration ABC 123 was a Works Competition number and unknowingly offered and sold by DVLA at auction. The owner of the 'real' car then claims it. Does it get withdrawn and reallocated?

5. Having read carefully all the posts on this forum, I am not very convinced there is much point in having this discussion.


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