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Problems concerning reclaimed registrations. What should be done?
1. The government (i.e. DVLA) should tighten up the system. It has been too lax for too long. 17%  17%  [ 18 ]
2. Any change to the system should be applied retrospectively. 8%  8%  [ 8 ]
3. The involvement of cars clubs vetting applications needs to be substantially tightened up. 15%  15%  [ 16 ]
4. The vehicle and supporting evidence should be physically inspected at the time an application to reclaim a registration number is first made. 15%  15%  [ 16 ]
5. Major parts should be officially die-stamped before any restoration work begins. 1%  1%  [ 1 ]
6. A vehicle should once again be physically inspected when it is ready to be MOT’d. 9%  9%  [ 9 ]
7. A substantial fee (£100 or more) should be paid for any inspection. 4%  4%  [ 4 ]
8. A better system be put in place to report to the DVLA dubious reclaimed registrations. 14%  14%  [ 15 ]
9. A recorded chassis or VIN number should show that a re-shell has taken place. 12%  12%  [ 13 ]
10. Who cares, it doesn’t concern a vehicle I own. Leave the system exactly as it is. (No need to answer any of the other 9 questions.) 5%  5%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 105
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:08 pm 
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I'm talking in general, high end / low end, people will always have their own opinions of other people's cars (good or bad) I guess the only time it matters is if you are selling or buying, and then only to those two people, at that time. Some of the stories you hear do make you wonder how some people sleep at night :roll:


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:59 pm 
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In the shed wrote:
I used to love going to hillclimbs and seeing a whole variety of beauties and vulgar minis being utterly spanked. Now, there are just a couple of preciouses driven carefully. Everything else has become a trailer queen..



You should come to harewood for the C19 class next year. A full class of minis getting well spanked. I've got the in car footage of mine buzzing to 9200rpm.

Precious. Never

Driven carefully. Yes I such that I'm not a plonker, but I never worry or fear crashing it or blowing it up!.

Come to the real deal mk1 Byton track day and see a full compliment of people thrashing their pride and joy!

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should you wish, you can contact me on rich@minispares.com

'long beard boss'


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:19 am 
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Here is a good ambiguous example of the topic. Pity because it would be a nice project.

1960-AUSTIN-HEALEY-FROGEYE-SPRITE-ID-AND-HERITAGE-CERTIFICATE
eBay item number:173031411894
Genuine 1960 Austin Healey Sprite Chassis ID Plate and Heritage Certificate

Bought this with the intention of purchasing a new body shell and building a fast road Frogeye Sprite

The ID is from a Frogeye that was broken for parts back in the day when they were worth nowhere near what they are fetching now, the previous owner kept the shell and ID until it fell apart and was disposed of, the car was never scrapped or sorned and although there are no DVLA documents, the ID should allow you to rebuild the car and hopefully either reclaim the original reg number (again the previous owner has quoted the reg number stated on the heritage cert) or get an age related plate from a DVLA vehicle inspection of the completed vehicle?

I suppose you could also use it to convert a LHD import to RHD ?


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:33 am 
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Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2010 8:44 am
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..Or rebirth someone's stolen pride and joy...

Which is exactly why such shenanigans are highly illegal where I come from...

Cheers, Ian


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:06 am 
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Here’s something that hasn’t been mentioned , it’s still perfectly possible to book an appointment and sift through Gaydon’s chassis number archive. I’ve never done it and I bet it’s fascinating but strikes me as pretty liberal of them! Anyone ever spent a few hours in there?


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:52 am 
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davidscothorn wrote:
Here is a good ambiguous example of the topic. Pity because it would be a nice project.

1960-AUSTIN-HEALEY-FROGEYE-SPRITE-ID-AND-HERITAGE-CERTIFICATE
eBay item number:173031411894
Genuine 1960 Austin Healey Sprite Chassis ID Plate and Heritage Certificate

Bought this with the intention of purchasing a new body shell and building a fast road Frogeye Sprite

The ID is from a Frogeye that was broken for parts back in the day when they were worth nowhere near what they are fetching now, the previous owner kept the shell and ID until it fell apart and was disposed of, the car was never scrapped or sorned and although there are no DVLA documents, the ID should allow you to rebuild the car and hopefully either reclaim the original reg number (again the previous owner has quoted the reg number stated on the heritage cert) or get an age related plate from a DVLA vehicle inspection of the completed vehicle?

I suppose you could also use it to convert a LHD import to RHD ?


Here's the ad in full:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1960-AUSTIN-HEALEY-FROGEYE-SPRITE-ID-AND-HERITAGE-CERTIFICATE/173031411894?hash=item284979d0b6:g:n2EAAOSw-olaMYtR

Thanks to David for spotting this one. This is even worse than a logbook job! If you sift through what the guy has to say, first of all the Frogeye was broken for spares. That left him with the shell which eventually rotted through and was thrown away save for the chassis plate. With that chassis number he then applies in September of this year for the heritage certificate. As we all know heritage certificates provide interesting information but they prove nothing official in terms of rebuilding or restoring a vehicle. All in all he is selling a chassis plate and suggests that a Frogeye can be built around a chassis plate! It's a complete nonsense and is yet another example of what many of us keep rabbiting on about. What's more it's not even a Mini this time!

Incidentally he says:

the ID should allow you to rebuild the car and hopefully either reclaim the original reg number (again the previous owner has quoted the reg number stated on the heritage cert) or get an age related plate from a DVLA vehicle inspection of the completed vehicle?

He tries to distance himself from the heritage certificate application by talking of the 'previous owner'. Well you don't have to be too smart to see that his name is on the heritage certificate and it also happens to be his eBay username! So it was he who applied for the certificate, not some 'previous owner.'

He also talks about getting an age related plate from a DVLA inspection of the completed vehicle That bears out the point I made in a previous post although surprisingly no-one so far has passed any comment on it so far. My suggestion was that if an inspection was done prior to any restoration work being done it would put a stop to all of these 'I'm starting with no more than a logbook, chassis plate, wheel nut' so called restorations.

By the way other than a comment by Pete F no one else has commented about the possible involvement of the FBHVC in putting a stop to these dodgy rebuilds/restorations. Does no one have any thoughts either way on this? A good idea or a waste of time for the FBHVC to be involved?

Graham


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:54 pm 
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I would have no problem with another Frogeye Sprite being returned to the road if the 'Reshell or Die' proposal below suggested by Classic Car Monthly had been adopted back in 2011 with an 'R' prefix or suffix added to the chassis/vin number to denote a re-shell......it would be much easier with a later Sprite/Midget though as a BMH shell could be used for £9,250:-
http://www.bmh-ltd.com/midgetshell.htm

Classics Monthly wanted to see a change in the law back in 2011:

One law for different vehicle designs
Perception of what is deemed a classic car changes with subsequent generations of enthusiasts. The term is no longer the preserve of chrome-laden icons built before1973.
Vehicle construction methods have long since moved away from separate chassis and bodyshells in response to manufacturing, safety and design influences. Monocoque-body classics (no separate chassis) have been recognised as such for decades but restoring one by reshelling can alter this perception in the eye of current legislation.
I can quite legally build a repro bodyshell from new off-the-shelf pattern panels for a separate chassis classic and the car be easily considered genuine. A similar-aged car of monocoque design would be illegal if I replaced the shell with an identical second-hand shell and tried to keep its original identity to avoid it being re-registered as a Q-plate.
This law is outdated and doesn't reflect the growing popularity of monocoque classics and enthusiasts' desire to preserve them with their original identity.
Gary Stretton, Editor. Classics Monthly

The Classics Monthly proposal:
To retain the original identity and registration of a reshelled vehicle.

1. The recognised legal owner of two similar cars would have permission to create one classic vehicle from both, retaining the original identity of the nominated car.

2. In order to do this they would notify the DVLA of their intention, stating the vehicles concerned.

3. An appointed body (or approved engineer) would inspect both vehicles for a fee payable by the proposer to confirm vehicle identities.

4. Any checks such as HPI and police checks would also be part of the process and would need to be satisfied by the proposer before point 6.

5. The DVLA would then acknowledge the request, stating any legal reasons why this couldn’t happen. For example a powerful variant of a vehicle using a similar donor vehicle without necessary considerations to braking, extra shell strengthening and so on. This information is widely held by owners’ clubs.

6. Upon approval, the owner would then be free to transfer key components, e.g. engine, suspension, brakes, steering and transmission.

7. Once ready, an appointed engineer would inspect, for another fee, both vehicles to ensure the reshelling is both legal and roadworthy.

8. The discarded bodyshell would be recycled (scrapped) and the identity of the donor vehicle associated with the original car's identity by the DVLA.

9. If necessary, a chassis or VIN number could be given an additional suffix or prefix (‘R’, for example) to denote a reshelling has taken place.

This proposal, we believe, meets the legal concerns of the DVLA, keen to stamp out car 'ringing' and the cost of implementing the scheme.
It would safeguard the future of monocoque-bodied classic cars, deter their illegal reshelling and recycle otherwise perfectly good bodyshells.
The survival of such classics will ensure employment within the automotive sector and help maintain the billions of pounds the classic sector creates for the UK economy.
Petition:
If you believe the reshelling of a classic car, retention of its original identity and the preservation of future classics in a legally transparent manner is essential for the future of our hobby, and those employed by it, please sign our petition.
Classics Monthly wants to see a change in the law to reflect the changing perception of what a classic car is and the desire of enthusiasts to preserve them responsibly, safely and legally.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:17 pm 
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Quote:
Here’s something that hasn’t been mentioned , it’s still perfectly possible to book an appointment and sift through Gaydon’s chassis number archive. I’ve never done it and I bet it’s fascinating but strikes me as pretty liberal of them! Anyone ever spent a few hours in there?


I have spent many hours, indeed many days in there going through the factory ledgers regarding researching information for the 1959 mini register amongst other things. Easier of course if you live within a reasonable travelling distance from Gaydon. Very interesting and worthwhile though.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:53 pm 
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Location: North East
mab01uk wrote:
Classics Monthly wanted to see a change in the law back in 2011:

I can quite legally build a repro bodyshell from new off-the-shelf pattern panels for a separate chassis classic and the car be easily considered genuine. A similar-aged car of monocoque design would be illegal if I replaced the shell with an identical second-hand shell and tried to keep its original identity....


That Classic Monthly proposal is an utter load of crap!

If a second hand shell is good enough to be used to rebuild a car then it should keep its original identity. The chassis number was assigned to the shell. With what can be achieved these days with new panel the really is no reason to use the shell from an 850 to rebuild an S. Keep the 850 alive and repair your S shell, then there are two more classics on the road.

The only reason people want to re-shell something is to make a lower spec model a more desirable and more valuable spec car.

All these ids trying to find homes are just ringing kits, and one day some unfortunate classic owner will find his/her car has been stolen so by some dodgy ****** who has just purchased there new car chassis number.

What the DVLA need to do is ask for photographs of the restoration of any car that is being re-registered using an old V5, chassis plate, etc etc. These photos should show that there is no doubt that the car is what it is. They should show the car as purchased, during the rebuild, and then completed. If new chassis/engine numbers have been used then the originals need to be available for inspection. If there is any doubt that the car is not genuine then it should be given an age related plate and marked as a replica on the V5C. Also the DVLA should have any re-registered cars stamped on the body shell. I think they should also provide a service were owners of existing cars can have their vehicles inspected and stamped with the id. These numbers could be stamped anywhere on the vehicle making it harder for the dodgy ******* to ring stolen vehicles.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:49 pm 
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surfblue63 wrote:

That Classic Monthly proposal is an utter load of crap!


i agree, it was nothing more than an attempt to allow legalise 'up ringing' and i think it was generally treated with the contempt that it deserved.

as for paperwork checks, when my GTM was built, every single bit of paper, bill, etc was inspected by the police and stamped with a little round rubber stamp.

it was this inspection of the paperwork that allowed it to retain the registration mark of the original doner vehicle rather than been either registered as a new vehicle, or been issued a 'Q' plate

it would be interesting for peter to discribe the process that the police went through when looking at stuff like kit cars / id checks 'back in the day' as it seems that it was pretty rare that people building kit cars followed the rules judging by the amount that are registered on 'donor' mini logbooks, and this was in the days when you could literally get away with anything!

_________________
should you wish, you can contact me on rich@minispares.com

'long beard boss'


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