DVLA targeting Classic Cars?

[Drumbogle]

I received this link from the Midget & Sprite Club of which I’m a member. Has anyone yet been contacted by DVLA?

https://www.heritagecarinsurance.co.uk/ ... -prove-it/

[Dearg1275]

I wonder if the target of this DVLA action is later cars that have acquired an earlier identity. We have all seen examples of later minis in the motoring press sporting historic entitlement number plates. While some of these may be a reshell of an existing car, a proportion will not fit that description.

Unfortunately as owners of minis we are likely to be the target of such action, owing to the mini having had such a long production run with essentially no change to the cars profile. It is relatively easy to give a later car a passable impression of an earlier one.

Where a genuine car has had period replacement parts e.g. 4 synchro gearbox replacing a 3 synchro there would be little problem but a metro turbo set up in a 1960 850 might be a different kettle of fish.

All very disturbing none the less.

[Andrew1967]

As I read that, the engine is only 'one' of the major components required to keep the status.

So, the 'original' body, steering gear and subframes would be enough ?

Even an engine change from say 850 to 1275 seems to only 'lose' 1 point, still allowing enough points from the rest of the car to make the 8 points. How the hell are they going to be able to prove that the gearbox is not original, for instance. They'd have to have 'experts' on every make and model to even to be able to start to police this.

Targeting those with R1 and Hayabusa engines and Vauxhall 16v engines in, I can understand, as the rest of the car will more than likely be radically altered. That's not to say that I agree with it by the way

[Dearg1275]

This all gets very silly. We all know that subframes and steering gear are service replacement items. Some will argue that so is the shell but that is another can of worms. If by "original" they mean original specification or type then that is more reasonable.

[Pete]

Not sure on the motives of this and also we have to bear in mind that alot of that article is based on alot of conjecture but it's safe to say the finite detail of the points system will be IMPOSSIBLE to administer and in reality piece of cake to comply with. No DVLA representative, outsourced or not, will know the difference between various Ml1 shells, etc etc The only possible explanation for assesment of classic cars would be to catch anyone who's riding around in a car described as something it blatantly isn't?

[Spider]

Not sure on the motives of this ........

I'd say, it has everything to do with this

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=20122

and I think I flagged that.

They did the same here when we got our historic and vintage schemes. Basically to be sure (in our case) that cars that are on it are eligible. In your case, it would to send a message that although your older cars may not have to undergo MOT, you are still required to keep them road legal, not just roadworthy, but in terms of permitted modifications.

[surfblue63]

It appears the DVLA have changed the registration for Reconstructed classic cars

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration ... c-vehicles

10. Reconstructed classic vehicles
Your vehicle must comply with the road vehicles regulations if you use it on the road.
How to register
You must follow all the instructions for registering a new vehicle.
You must include the following with your application:
written report from the appropriate vehicle owners’ club
form V627/1 - ‘Built up vehicle inspection report’
evidence of type approval, if necessary
official receipts for any parts used

Get an age-related registration number
DVLA can only recognise your vehicle as a reconstructed classic vehicle if it meets certain criteria. It must be:
built from genuine period components from more than one vehicle, all over 25 years old and of the same specification as the original vehicle
a true reflection of the marque
The appropriate vehicle owners’ club for the vehicle type (‘marque’) must inspect the vehicle and confirm in writing that it:
has been inspected
is a true reflection of the marque
is comprised of genuine period components all over 25 years old
They must also give manufacture dates for the major components.
DVLA will assign an age-related registration number to the vehicle based on the youngest component used.
New or replica parts
Your vehicle won’t get an age-related registration number if it includes new or replica parts. DVLA will give your vehicle a ‘Q’ prefix registration number. Your vehicle must pass the relevant type approval test to get a ‘Q’ prefix registration number.

As I said in another thread this does not apply to cars that are already registered, only new registrations. What it does make me think is can you build up a car from old parts, including a shell with no Id, and get it registered as a classic?

Cars that have previously been registered but are not on the DVLA system can still be re-issued with their original number, and checking the application there is none of the requirement for original spec older than 25 years parts.

9. Old vehicles
Your vehicle must meet the road vehicles regulations if you use it on the road.
If you have a classic vehicle that hasn’t been taxed since 1983, it might not be registered with DVLA.
If this is the case and you want to register it, follow all the instructions for registering a vehicle for the first time.
Get your vehicle’s original registration number
You may be able to register an old vehicle under its original registration number if either:
it’s never been registered at DVLA
it has an age-related registration number
To do this, you’ll have to:
follow the instructions for new registrations
fill in form V765 - ‘Application to register a vehicle under its original registration number’
get form V765 endorsed by a vehicle owners’ club
provide a recent photo of the vehicle and documentary evidence that links it to the original number, eg the original log book

I think the article posted on the Heritage Insurance site is ******* by an insurance company trying to cover itself. Most of what is in it can be found, and taken out of context, on the DVLA registration page https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration and the story relating to owners receiving letter surely goes back to the Bugatti owners club saga of a few years ago.

[1071 S]

[quote="surfblue63"]It appears the DVLA have changed the registration for Reconstructed classic cars

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration ... c-vehicles

[quote]10. Reconstructed classic vehicles
Your vehicle must comply with the road vehicles regulations if you use it on the road.
How to register
You must follow all the instructions for registering a new vehicle.
You must include the following with your application:
written report from the appropriate vehicle owners’ club
form V627/1 - ‘Built up vehicle inspection report’
evidence of type approval, if necessary
official receipts for any parts used

Get an age-related registration number
DVLA can only recognise your vehicle as a reconstructed classic vehicle if it meets certain criteria. It must be:
built from genuine period components from more than one vehicle, all over 25 years old and of the same specification as the original vehicle
a true reflection of the marque
The appropriate vehicle owners’ club for the vehicle type (‘marque’) must inspect the vehicle and confirm in writing that it:
has been inspected
is a true reflection of the marque
is comprised of genuine period components all over 25 years old
They must also give manufacture dates for the major components.
DVLA will assign an age-related registration number to the vehicle based on the youngest component used.
New or replica parts
Your vehicle won’t get an age-related registration number if it includes new or replica parts.

SO..as soon as your car needs new brake pads you will be given a Q plate???

Cheers, Ian

[ivor badger 2]

Having been up at the local VOSA station for a vehicle identity inspection, this was the further discussion. At that time, 2010, they DVLA were not directly looking at supposedly reconstructed vehicles. A couple of people in the local centre were actually forming an unofficial register of old Minis that appeared on Ebay that were obviously not what they were supposed to be and not hard to spot. This was at the time unofficial, but there was obviously a point at which it was going to become a problem for people with the supposedly rebuilt 60s mini with 12" wheels, wind up windows, a rod change and many other extras. This time seems to have arrived with the removal of the MOT from older vehicles, not to mention not paying VED.

I have a friend who rebuilt a 30s Aston Martin saloon into an Ulster. He built it from a box of bits of the original car, being the 12th owner from 1955 to own the box. All the chassis and running gear came from the original car and effectively only the body was new and non original. After a discussion with DVLA around 2005 he was given a non transferrable age related plate for the car. The thing is that these people in VOSA are not stupid and know more about vehicles than the reg swappers. In my own case, which was caused by someone using a part number instead of the chassis plate on a document, there was no problem. " The vehicle is exactly what it is supposed to be, you will receive a new reg document correcting the error" and I did, thus removing what turned out to be a long standing discussion. So if your vehicle is rebuilt from age related parts and looks what it should be, but if you have an MPI mini with 60s plates, oh dear a Q plate awaits.

[LMM76C]

It appears the DVLA have changed the registration for Reconstructed classic cars

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration ... c-vehicles


...."is comprised of"....

I hope they know more about cars than they do about the English language.

[rich@minispares.com]

I hope they know more about cars than they do about the English language.

they are welsh...

[Peter Laidler]

Dear o' deary me....... I hope that they will be better at this latest wheeze than they were about taking me on for not SORNing my RCS mini. But doubt it. What a fiasco....., it was at my sisters house, - in Portugal! Even their reply to my local MP was total gobbledygook. And we STILL don't have an official answer about whether it needs to be SORNed while abroad

[spoon.450]

Sounds like you got the better of them Peter

[1071 S]

The trouble with most of these people (speaking about similar issues with the local jurisdiction) is that they don't finish the job.

They make loose statements that are not well defined, don't define the terms they use and then get upset when someone adopts a definition that doesn't fit with their original idea... The problem is compounded when over zealous "civilians" ( i.e. the local clubs that are given power over implementation) adopt sub-regulations/definitions for their own purposes.... that quite often don't suit the needs/wants of their constituents.

In my other world (US export regulations) there are similar issues but the rules go to great lengths to define "items, components, parts, fasteners and miscellaneous brackets .... etc etc". There are still holes but it makes it more difficult to defend "interpretations" of the regulations. (And the stakes are higher).

My car is registered under our "historic" classification ($45 for annual third party insurance and registration) but there are restrictions on usage. Under the rules "personal use" is specifically authorised. When I asked, the lady responded, somewhat bemusedly, that as I was a "person" then as long as I "used" it......... enough said.

The freedom frightens some clubs though..

Cheers, Ian

[Supersonic]

It looks as if car clubs now are not being asked about these vehicle inspections. I’ve a friend who is a founder member of the Landcrab Owners Club and he had a vehicle checked recently by DVLA officials. The vehicle in question was an Austin 1800 and the DVLA established that my friend owned two other vehicles the same make and colour. When they called they requested to see the other two vehicles which was interesting. Maybe it is not a bad thing that car clubs will no longer be able to validate cars that have turned up out of the blue

Alan

[Peter Laidler]

One of the morals to this story MUST be to never, ever, never deal with anyone verbally, over the phone, by magic, hand signals, email, fax, text - no nothing. Only EVER in writing - if you all remember what writing is. Writing becomes an irrefutable point of fact. And when/if it comes to push and shove and is ambiguous to some degree, then you must be awarded the benefit of any doubt. There is NEVER such a thing as a friendly or off-the-record chat with anyone in authority. I could go on but I know I'm wasting my breath.............

[rich@minispares.com]

Maybe it is not a bad thing that car clubs will no longer be able to validate cars that have turned up out of the blue

Alan

I don't thing the DVLA will ever trust the words of any club again after the alleged shenanigans that went on with the Bugatti owners club

its the actions of clubs that have sent the DVLA down this path

[IslandBlue66]

I think the a combination of the DVLA and successive governments have created this mess.
Instead of taking a step back and starting with a clean sheet, they have just added yet another set of ambiguous rules.

The main issues seem to be:-

Cars being built up from paperwork

Cars that are obviously not original early vehicles with identities attached that allow the owner to avoid the road fund licence. (soon even more people will be tempted to swap identities to avoid the MOT)

Cars that are heavily modified with high power modern engines, or significant chassis modifications.

The DVLA really don't have the resources to check all of the 100k+ historic vehicles they would need to be checking 100's a week for a decade or more to catch up.

They can't really trust the clubs to police this for them either.

I don't see why they don't just draw a line in the sand and say that anything unregistered before a certain date will require a type approval test before a registration document is issued.

Just put the road fund tax on the price of fuel, this would remove the temptation for people to swap identities onto a later vehicle. If you use the car, you pay the tax. Anyone using the car for a couple of months of the year in the summer will pay a lot less than somebody using the car all year round. Simple.

It's already a requirement to notify the DVLA of an engine swap or a major change in the chassis. If it was not fitted as standard to a production vehicle, require a type approval test. In other words anything fitted to a production mini or land rover or escort etc as standard is allowable. Modern high power engines major changes in the suspension, brakes and steering fitted to older cars require some kind of safety test to be done.

Keep the MOT, if you want to use it on the road it gets tested to a standard appropriate for its age. Anything out of the ordinary in terms of engine or chassis modifications would be easily picked up.

If you get caught using a vehicle on the road that has been significantly modified or unsafe on the road it gets withdrawn from use until the appropriate tests have been done.

None of this is rocket science. Simplify the rules so everyone understands what they can and can't do. Remove the incentives for people to bend the rules, and make it unattractive to heavily modify a vehicle the vast majority of people would comply.

[Peter Laidler]

To be honest, as with most officialdom, you can already imagine the qualities of the vehicle inspectors that they'll send round to see your car. They'll all be qualified with the usual NVQ's (= not very qualified) in car stuff and things after a 4 week course or government sponsored 'apprenticeship' with graduate 'line managers' with the usual degree in Abyssinian Pottery before 3000BC or Ecclesiastical Geography........ No I don't either - but I'm sure such qualifications exist somewhere

[rich@minispares.com]

To be honest, as with most officialdom, you can already imagine the qualities of the vehicle inspectors that they'll send round to see your car. They'll all be qualified with the usual NVQ's (= not very qualified) in car stuff and things after a 4 week course or government sponsored 'apprenticeship' with graduate 'line managers' with the usual degree in Abyssinian Pottery before 3000BC or Ecclesiastical Geography........ No I don't either - but I'm sure such qualifications exist somewhere

you are wrong here peter.

when my dads 1930's Rolls Royce was inspected after someone else built an entire replica of it and tried to claim the logbook for it the dvla came out to inspect my dads car

a young girl turned up, put a set of overalls on and vanished under it, she knew exactly where to look for each of the numbers, took the door cards off it to find the coach builders body numbers etc

sure enough, logbook returned.

for some of the proper expensive pre war stuff they are going as far as having the metal of the chassis tested to see if the chassis is the orginal