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 Post subject: Re: "Downton" Cooper S??
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:29 pm 
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Costafortune wrote:
Years ago, I met a chap from Anglesey who had a logbook and Heritage 'proof-of-absolute-authenticity, honest Guv' for 777MCG.


The car should be nicknamed Spartacus.


Several applications went in to BMIHT for that chassis number from what I hear!

The car was totally f*cked and disposed of in its entirity. Somebody in the 80s (correct me if I'm wrong mark) "borrowed" the old paperwork from the very last owner. He accidentally on purpose lost it in a mystery fire and so that's why the paperwork story has been circulating, cos evidently the bloody paperwork was circulating!! The reason that the car in the Goodwood auction doesn't use the registration '777 MCG' is because the last owner of it is still around and would have spotted it , seeing as he scrapped it. So, a certain person who Hales from the Midlands built it using that chassis number, some of the history of '777 MCG' with the Daniel Richmond bits left out of course and stuck a lookalikey reg number on it. And evidently a pile of "original" Downton paperwork with '850 MCG' on it.

"Mmmmm... Nescafe"

The question I'd like to know the answer to is : who examined that car in 2007 to get a logbook for it? I wonder if DVLA will answer that question if it was asked??


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 Post subject: Re: "Downton" Cooper S??
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:32 pm 
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mk1 wrote:
Cheeky bugger!

You could have waited for me to break the news ;)


Ooops. :oops: Good work though Sherlock!! ;)


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 Post subject: Re: "Downton" Cooper S??
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:49 pm 
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Woaw - hail hail the Gr.. - some one is making lots of money

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 Post subject: Re: "Downton" Cooper S??
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:01 am 
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Location: Oop North where it's dark & cold nearly all the time.
777 MCG did live & die in North Lincs.

There are / were 2 copies of the paperwork kicking about, the originals & a set of copies.

Without going into every detail, the story goes like this:

1964 - Car is sold to Daniel Richmond as the first owner.

Sometime after - car is transferred to the ownership of Downton Engineering Works

1969 - Car is sold by Downton to the Son of a BMC Dealer in N Lincs. When it was sold it was fitted with Downton's new "Tiger Tim" engine. 1300GT block bored to 1340, twin 1 1/2" SU's SU's was quoted as being 101bhp at the wheels.

1970's - Car is Rallied with moderate success, but began to get a bit long in the tooth

Late 70's early 80's - Car had its front chopped off & was used for Grass Track racing.

Mid 80's - Car was retired & sold as a bare shell with documents to "current owner". Shell was scrapped sometime in the 80's as the owner was no longer interested in Minis & needed the space.

Some time after this date the owner was approached by a "Mini Expert" regarding 777, he lent the "Mini Expert" (not Greg) the documents, but took copies before he did so. While the "expert" had the copies, he told the owner he had suffered a mystery "fire" & the documents were lost forever. The owner went legal & obtained a sworn affidavit from the "expert" confirming legal ownership was held by the actual owner & permanently revoking any claim of ownership by the person who "lost" the original docs. So the current owner can (if he chooses) prove his legal claim to this cars identity.

The current owner still has the history for the car & is well aware of it's importance & the current interest in the vehicle. He is currently considering his options as the car recently sold in the Bonhams Auction is a clone of his car bearing exactly the same chassis & engine number.

So there you go, the TRUE story of 777 MCG.

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 Post subject: Re: "Downton" Cooper S??
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:27 am 
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Blimey. Anyone got a reverse can opener - someone may need one soon!


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 Post subject: Re: "Downton" Cooper S??
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:46 am 
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Location: Abingdon Oxfordshire
I haven't followed this saga so apologies if I've got it all wrong or am barking up the wrong persons ars.........., er......, bottom, but. If this duplicated car/paperwork/docks/provenance is all it seems - or NOT all it seems, depending on your point of view, the answer is actually VERY simple. One of the interested parties or anyone else can tell this to the DVLA and they call in the parties and cancel the registration number - as is their want. Then they ask them to provide the docs that can verify their entitlement to the registration number. And here's the fuzzy bit. They'll also want to see 'substantial remains', '....or other verifiable..... blah blah blah.....' relating to the vehicle in question.

End of story.

There is precedence to this that I was aware of. It was a case sort of similar to this relating to an imported Lotus Cortina - British Forces in Germany, then German registered, then Portugal, then Jersey then back to the UK and......


Last edited by Peter Laidler on Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: "Downton" Cooper S??
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:53 am 
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Trouble is, the only loser will be the poor sod who's just spunked 63 big ones. The vendor, GH, the other Expert et al (and Bonhams) will walk away from this, whistling.

At the end of the day, the guy with the paperwork sold/disposed of the shell. Whatever happened to it after that is no longer his concern. End of story. All this happened 30 odd years ago anyway, and 777MCG was never added to the DVLC database.

I'd just let it lie.


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 Post subject: Re: "Downton" Cooper S??
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:21 am 
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Costafortune wrote:
Trouble is, the only loser will be the poor sod who's just spunked 63 big ones. The vendor, GH, the other Expert et al (and Bonhams) will walk away from this, whistling.

At the end of the day, the guy with the paperwork sold/disposed of the shell. Whatever happened to it after that is no longer his concern. End of story. All this happened 30 odd years ago anyway, and 777MCG was never added to the DVLC database.

I'd just let it lie.


I'm inclined to agree to an extent but then the car could easily be shifted once more to another unsuspecting buyer and it becomes a toxic asset! One crucial point here is that the original seller (via Bonhams) sold the car with original Downton paperwork pertaining to this chassis number but with a different number plate on. Bonhams were made aware of this but demanded proof, which seemingly came too late.

Lets's not pretend for one minute this is a one off, there are several famous and valuable cars that have been "restored" in recent times being presented as the real thing, all different owners, which have the same back story of V5 applications for cars that had been previously scrapped. The problem always seems to be more often than not that the creators assumed that the story wouldn't get out, usually as the DVLA torched all records of the cars that had been scrapped when they computersied and of course the genesis of most of these cars goes back to pre internet days and they now find history is catching up with them to bight them in the arse! Of course in the old days these cars found their way to Japan, the U.S or Europe where very trusting buyers fell for the bullsh*t hook, line and sinker. I'm sure there's some very nervous "restorers" sincerely hoping they don't come back!


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 Post subject: Re: "Downton" Cooper S??
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:43 pm 
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Location: Oop North where it's dark & cold nearly all the time.
Just to be absolutely clear on this one. I have no axe to grind on any side, I am simply interested in the story from the point of view of someone who has on & off searched for MCG 777 for nearly 30 years. I always hoped I'd find it "waiting for me" in a barn somewhere. I have only posted the comments above, to, as far as I am concerned, complete the story.

Whatever the car that was sold at Bonham's recently is, it is NOT the car that it claims to be or for that matter the car that it's chassis Number & Engine number match up with. I would love to see the paperwork relating to 850 MCG as I am almost certain that it will be something that Greg has knocked up as he has done in previous cases.

Someone with far more interest in the continuing saga can pick the bones out of it as to who is right & who is wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: "Downton" Cooper S??
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:46 pm 
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[quote="mk1 I would love to see the paperwork relating to 850 MCG as I am almost certain that it will be something that Greg has knocked up as he has done in previous cases.
[/quote]
I agree, and was possibly used when applying for the 850 MGG number plate. 777 MCG was a significant car and it's a shame it went to the scrappy in the end but at least the story of that car has come to a conclusion in that sense.


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