mk1-forum.net

A friendly international forum for people interested in the tuning & modification of classic BMC vehicles
It is currently Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:13 am

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 142 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 11, 12, 13, 14, 15  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:16 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 07, 2012 6:10 am
Posts: 2635
Location: Big Red, Australia
winabbey wrote:
Spider - you mentioned your Valley rubber cones in this thread, which is an interesting read - http://www.mk1-forum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9261

Minisport in Australia mention the cone patent number in their part description - http://minisport.com.au/mini-genuine-ru ... one-single


Hi Doug,

The Avon Branded Cones had the original Patent No. on them and I *** think *** that Avon bought the rights and / or design and / or Patent (my best guess), however both in test and in use I found them considerably inferior to the Valley manufactured types and not in line with tests I did years ago on OEM Dunlop Cones. The blurb I read on the Valley Rubber website (and somewhere else) did say that they made them to the original recipe and on original tooling. I have their website book marked on an old PC (I think) I'll see if I can find that. You could google 'Valley Rubber' but they don't come up under that. I forget their trading name.

Somewhere M-parts have, I think, bought in to them in some way in more recent times.

<Edit: I just looked up their Trading Name or Parent Company, it was a company called Weightwash. They seem to be an Industrial Laundry of all things. I'm not sure if they still have this 'Valley Rubber' division under their umbrella. >


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:44 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 7:08 pm
Posts: 3025
69k1100 wrote:
I always envisioned it being stamped or spun on a mandrel. You can design it without undercuts, so both the upper and lower could be stamped.

It might have been made from readily available pipe originally, or perhaps they did this a means to better control wall thickness.

The shape of the upper / lower Housing isn't indicative of the whole manufacturing cycle.

There wouldn't have been any undercuts, the rubber then compression moulded directly into the steel cone, and then finally crimped on the lower valve assembly using a large hydraulic pipe press (with custom profiled dies), I think I even eluded to this in a previous post, you can see the witness marks form the hydraulic press. If you want to re-use the Rubber spring, then yes, you would have to flare the crimp. and then bash it back on?

But why?

Once you remove the crimp, cut/burn/dissolve the rubber and then recasting the rubber, wouldn't it be far easier to to punch/spin some new upper housings?

Any why not contact Dunlop? Perhaps they know the original formulation, Or maybe it was patented and so you would be able to do a patent search.


A couple of years ago I did try contacting 'Dunlop Systems' via email to ask if they had any historic information or old photographs in their company archives, showing the factory manufacturing process and tooling used in the production of the Dunlop/Moulton Hydrolastic suspension units as used on cars of the BMC /British Leyland /Austin Morris range of cars, especially the BMC Mini's from 1964-1970 and does any of the original tooling or engineering development material or engineering detail drawings survive or was everything scrapped?
Sadly as expected there was no reply......

Dunlop History
"The Dunlop Pneumatic Tyre Company opened its first factory in the Hillfields area of Coventry in 1890. In 1908, following the acquisition of the neighbouring Stevenson Wheel Company, the Coventry factory was renamed the Dunlop Rim & Wheel Company Limited. The company relocated to the Holbrook Lane site in Coventry in 1919, where over the years it developed its engineering contribution to both the automotive and aviation industries. In 1959, collaboration between the British Motor Corporation, Moulton Developments and Dunlop saw the launch of the Mini motor car (ADO15). This was fitted with Dunlop manufactured cone spring suspension which, due to its success, quickly resulted in Dunlop forming a Suspensions Division in Coventry. The partnership continued with the launch of the BMC 1100 (ADO16) in 1962, followed by the 1800 (ADO17), both of which were fitted with Hydrolastic suspension manufactured by the Dunlop Suspension Division. With the change to Leyland cars in the 1970s came a further development, with the introduction of hydragas suspension on the Allegro, Princess, Metro, Ambassador and MGF vehicles. In 1970, The Suspension Division enlarged to include the further development and manufacture of the Pneuride® & Flexolink® air suspension systems, initially having levelling valves, to serve the commercial and public service vehicle market. With the introduction of Electronically Controlled Air Suspension (ECAS) in 1990 for Range Rover, the company extended the Pneuride range to include the sports utility market.
During 2007 Dunlop Systems and Components was formed as a management buyout of the Dunlop Coventry suspension division factory from previous owners Trelleborg AB. In the spring of 2014, the company moved to an all new, purpose built factory at Prologis Park in Coventry so ending a 95-year history at nearby Holbrook Lane."
http://www.dunlopsystems.com/about.html

Dunlop Systems and Components
Central Boulevard
Prologis Park
Coventry
CV6 4QJ
Phone: 02476 889900
Email: info@dunlopsystems.com

Does anyone know of any films, photos of the Hydrolastic Unit manufacturing process or factory machinery in the UK or elsewhere?
Does anyone perhaps know someone who worked in the original production process or what happened to the tooling....almost certainly scrapped.
There must have been some impressive machines and processes to produce millions of those unique suspension units in such a wide variety of shapes and sizes but sadly there seems to be very little record of it today.....I believe Heritage (BMH) have all the technical drawings, etc.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:01 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 07, 2012 6:10 am
Posts: 2635
Location: Big Red, Australia
Sorry, just found this !!

Seamist Green 1100 wrote:
Peter Laidler wrote:
EXACTLY Seamist...... the rubber casing acts as a shock absorber! See my para 2(d). Pulling teeth or what?

The rubber spring is a rubber spring.
It is not a rubber casing, it is not a damper, it is a spring. It is pre-loaded and holds energy.
It is the part that carries the load and deflects to absorb bumps.


Yes, the Rubber's Primary purpose is to act as a spring, however a side benefit of Rubber is it has natural self damping qualities.

This was discussed recently in another thread.

It's also why many who fit the Coil Springs (in place of the rubber cones) report back about 'body roll' and a 'more complain ride' which I read as softer and under damped. If one wants to run coils, they also need to run stiffer dampers.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:09 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2016 7:25 am
Posts: 30
Spider wrote:
Sorry, just found this !!

Seamist Green 1100 wrote:
Peter Laidler wrote:
EXACTLY Seamist...... the rubber casing acts as a shock absorber! See my para 2(d). Pulling teeth or what?

The rubber spring is a rubber spring.
It is not a rubber casing, it is not a damper, it is a spring. It is pre-loaded and holds energy.
It is the part that carries the load and deflects to absorb bumps.


Yes, the Rubber's Primary purpose is to act as a spring, however a side benefit of Rubber is it has natural self damping qualities.

This was discussed recently in another thread.

It's also why many who fit the Coil Springs (in place of the rubber cones) report back about 'body roll' and a 'more complain ride' which I read as softer and under damped. If one wants to run coils, they also need to run stiffer dampers.

Yes, rubber is self damping to a degree. Your example of coils is correct. Just like if you removed the coils and fitted airbags you would need to increase the damping even more.
Leaf springs also have a degree of self damping.

But on a Hydrolastic displacer the damping is controlled by the internal valve body, just like a rubber suspended Mini it is controlled by the damper even though there is some self damping in the rubber spring.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:03 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 10:08 am
Posts: 42
Spider wrote:
The Avon Branded Cones had the original Patent No. on them and I *** think *** that Avon bought the rights and / or design and / or Patent (my best guess), however both in test and in use I found them considerably inferior to the Valley manufactured types and not in line with tests I did years ago on OEM Dunlop Cones. The blurb I read on the Valley Rubber website (and somewhere else) did say that they made them to the original recipe and on original tooling. I have their website book marked on an old PC (I think) I'll see if I can find that. You could google 'Valley Rubber' but they don't come up under that. I forget their trading name.

Somewhere M Parts have, I think, bought in to them in some way in more recent times.
Hi Spider

You've got most of the facts right but I thought I would fill in some of the gaps.

Back in 2008, Dunlop ceased production of the original Moulton rubber cone. With a certain amount of foresight, John Lloyd from M Parts negotiated to buy the original rubber cone tooling along with the test and production line equipment. There are very few manufacturers that have the expertise to bond rubber to steel and John built a relationship with Valley Rubber to recommence low volume production. During the recession, Valley Rubber went bust but production of the rubber cone continued at a new company called Polyolia after there was a management buyout.

M Parts has manufactured in excess of 25,000 units for Mini Spares since then and they are made according to the original Moulton recipe.

I don't think that BMC relied solely on Dunlop for the supply of cones and maybe Avon Rubber had their own tooling for the rubber cone and also supplied BMC. I don't know whether this tooling still exists or not. The cones that Mini Sport supply are made by Avon but use Alex Moulton's prototype mould. Cones from this mould were never used on production cars.
Spider wrote:
So, they may or may not have the original rubber recipe for the Hydro Displacers ??? and they clearly know how to bond rubber to steel. If they don't have the recipe, I'm of little doubt they would be able to work it out.
I will ask John Lloyd about the rubber recipe for the hydro displacers and whether any paperwork still exists.

From memory I think that the tooling for the hydro units still existed in 2007 but was more than likely scrapped. Roger


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:08 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2010 5:26 pm
Posts: 753
The Dunlop hydrolastic factory was on Foleshill road in Coventry , just off the ring road . The building is still there , now split up and sells kitchens and a tyre fitting place .

When it closed in the 1980,s there were skips full of new units that went for scrap .

A well known poster on this forum could have bought as many as he want for £1 each but didn't :? :shock:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:01 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 07, 2012 6:10 am
Posts: 2635
Location: Big Red, Australia
Cheers Roger for that.

Very Interesting.

Simon, we also had a Dunlop Hydrolastic Factory here too at Birkenhead Point (not far from were my Grandmother lived in fact). All long gone now, there was a fire there and then was redeveloped in to a shopping centre,,,,


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:56 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:15 am
Posts: 4
Location: Australia
Wondering how nileseh is going with a replacement hydro bag.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:25 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 7:08 pm
Posts: 3025
Pete Bourne who worked for the BL Chassis Department, (see separate thread on the Rover Minki projects) kindly sent me the details and photo below which may be of interest to some here in the long running Hydrolastic thread:-

Electric Hydragas machine
"Thought you might be interested in this. I designed and built this probably about the same time as Minki Two. It is an electric Hydragas machine. Ride and handling development was a tedious job sometimes. You could spend weeks constantly changing spring and damper settings for the Engineers. On a conventional car it was bad enough, but on Hydragas it was very hard because the system had to be constantly emptied and filled. The service machine was not really up to these constant changes and neither were our knees! That's why I came up with this machine. It worked great and was used in the workshop for all the development work. It was made from whatever I could scrounge. The pressure pump was from a cabriolet Rover 200 powered hood and the Vacuum was supplied by a Range Rover air suspension pump. I even got paid £800 for the idea from our Rover suggestion scheme."
Pete Bourne

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:45 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:30 am
Posts: 10548
Location: In the Village.
That is a very nice bit of kit. I have been thinking about making something similar as the vac side of both my hydro pumps is knackered, using a small electric vacuum pump makes perfect sense. To do the same for the pressurisation side is the next logical step.

_________________
Mark F
I am not a number, but you can get me on 0800-555-555


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 142 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 11, 12, 13, 14, 15  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bertam and 10 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Localized by Maël Soucaze © 2010 phpBB.fr