Works car found

Discuss all aspects of Classic Minis in Motorsport be it historic or current, the cars, the personalities & the venues
Post Reply
User avatar
spoon.450
1275 Cooper S
Posts: 1804
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:13 pm
Location: DERBYSHIRE

Works car found

Post by spoon.450 »

When we wrote this post over a week ago we forwarded it on to a few respected people with recognised knowledge in the Mini fraternity just to make sure that all the historical facts we were using were correct. To our surprise a couple of these people were very insistent that in their opinion some of this information should not be released, in their words “the car should stay as an anonymous works car with unknown identity”.
We we're amazed at this response, we didn’t expect it and couldn’t understand it. A week on after thinking hard and considering all points of views, we think telling the complete story is the right thing to do as we know now most enthusiasts will want to hear it.
We'd like to say sorry to the people who didn’t want all the information made public, we respect you and understand your concerns but hope even though you don’t agree with our decision, you understand that we listened to you but took opinions of others as well into consideration when making our decision.


Myself and fellow Mini enthusiast Martin Price recently sold some parts to a chap called Paul who claimed he had an ex-works S in one of his farm out buildings that he's owned for over thirty years and is still sat unrestored as he bought it along side an unrestored 1071 S and a one off 1930's four wheel drive Brooklands race car once owned by John Pertwee. Even though the chap seemed decent and plausible we obviously dismissed the idea of an ex-works car sitting un-discovered just down the road from us because Martin and I have been interested in Mini's for getting on for 30 years each so surely we'd have known about it! We tried to put it out of our minds but about three months after selling the parts we came across Paul's phone number and agreed that we should give him a ring and try to call round and take a look what he'd got.
We made the call and arranged to meet at Paul’s farm and just in case he had something interesting, we asked a local chap called Dave Beswick to come along as he's got a vast knowledge of ex-works cars and we knew if this car was anything he'd probably recognise it. Dave explained to us on the way the first things he'd be looking for was the asbestos heat shield on the bulkhead and the hydrolastic pipes running inside the car through neat grommets in the bulkhead and down the inner wheel arches with inline coupling/restrictors fitted. We knew the car was bought by Paul with a 970S engine but this was out the car so the pipes/heat shield should be clearly visible.
When we arrived at the farm Paul took us to the building where the cars were. What we were greeted with was a rough old red Mini with a white roof, right colours but not an obvious ex-works car, this was until we opened the bonnet and pulled the carpet back inside to expose the hydro pipes. Dave couldn’t believe what he were looking at.
Image
After being the biggest cynic out of any of us he was quite sure we were looking at an Abingdon built ex-works car.
30yrs ago when Paul bought the car he was told it was GRX55D which had been purchased by Jonny Organ (known comps dept mechanic) from Abingdon or at least one of its incarnations and as we looked at it sat on its bump stops looking sad the story stacked up in our minds as it had obvious damage on the nearside front corner which was documented on the 1966 Monte and everything looked right. We wondered if after GRX55D was damaged Abingdon decided to re-shell the car or build a completely new car for the GRX55D identity to enter the Circuit of Ireland?
Needless to say we took lots of pictures and that evening emailed them straight off to Guy Smith and Robert Young. The next morning we spoke to both of them who had been discussing our find until late that evening and they were both 99% sure we were looking at an ex-works S. What we had to determine next was which car we had found. We all understood that if we could work out which car it was there was a good chance the car would already exist as most works car had more than one shell so having a couple of cars both claiming the same identity happens. Robert explained to us it would probably be easier to prove the car wasn’t GRX55D than to prove it was, in fact the chances were we would never find out what number plate our car competed on. The best hope we'd got of positively identifying the car was if it still had the body number plate intact on the front panel which was always going to pretty unlikely as we believed Pauls car had 10 years rallying in private hands after its works life. Robert explained to us the body numbers were recorded by Abingdon when they registered a new car so unless it was the first shell of a known works car it would be meaningless as its number would have never been recorded.
Image
As you can imagine after getting the news off Guy and Robert we were eager to get back over and look at the car in more detail so last Thursday evening we went back with a proper camera a torch and some emery cloth to clean any parts up that looked like they might hold clue's to the cars past identity. Obviously the first thing we looked for was the body number and to our amazement there it was sat in between a 6RA relay and a rough old bracket exactly where it should have been with a few layers of paint over it. With the emery cloth and a wire brush it wasn’t hard to reveal the numbers which we forwarded straight on the Guy Smith. Guy hadn’t got the list of body numbers which is held by British Motor Heritage at Gaydon so he called Robert. Robert hadn’t got access to the list either so he called Bill Price who straight away told Robert that the car wasn't the first body shell of GRX55D but was in fact the first shell of GRX309D.
This news came as a shock to us as only a couple of days before we first viewed the car we happened to be looking at the history of GRX309D. We understand that this find is not going to make the current people who are arguing about who's got the genuine GRX309D very happy. It’s well documented that Abingdon sent a race car to the State's to compete in the Sebring 3 hour race. We think perhaps Abingdon built a brand new car for this prestigious event as they wouldn't have wanted to enter a rally car that had done four major events into a circuit race. As far as we can work out this genuine Abingdon ex-works car still survives in the States as a race car. Then we have the uk car that is registered with the number GRX309D. We have researched what we can about this car and found its authenticity has come in for some criticism over the years but we can't comment on how much of it has ever seen Abingdon but one thing is for sure, whatever it is it’s a thing of beauty and we'd love to own it.
We're going to meet up with Paul later this week and discuss our findings in detail with him and give him our ideas of what we think he should do with the car now. We'd like to see it sympathetically restored as group1 car, perhaps as Paddy drove it in the 66 Rally of the Flowers. This would set it apart from the other UK car which is presented as a group2 car. We see this find as another piece of the GRX309D jigsaw and no doubt with finding this piece it’s going to make it easier to find other pieces that will help in trying to string together its history. We'd like to discover how many events Pauls car did before it was retired into the "Abingdon compound" so any thoughts or opinions people have would be appreciated.
Thanks to Guy Smith, Robert Young and Bill Price for their help in identifying this car. Any more information we unearth we'll post it here but for now enjoy the pictures.
Here are few pictures, the rest can be viewed via a link to Martin's photobucket account.
There's also a link to a couple of video's on YouTube of when we exposed the number on the body I/D plate, if you watch these please bear in mind that we were thinking we'd found GRX55D and there’s an argument to say we were a bit over excited!!!!

Full Image Gallery

VIDEO: mazda and Works S 011
VIDEO: mazda and Works S 012

Regards Dave.
Last edited by spoon.450 on Sat Jan 25, 2014 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
rich@minispares.com
1275 Cooper S
Posts: 6806
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:16 pm
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Works car found

Post by rich@minispares.com »

great story and find and im sure there will be polar views on your find!!!
should you wish, you can contact me on rich@minispares.com

'long beard boss'
User avatar
Chris64
850 Super
Posts: 175
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 3:30 pm

Re: Works car found

Post by Chris64 »

:shock: 8-)

What more can you say!? Thanks for sharing it here, looking forward to reading the ensuing debate!
User avatar
Pete
1275 Cooper S
Posts: 11092
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 10:47 pm
Has thanked: 18 times
Been thanked: 43 times

Re: Works car found

Post by Pete »

Holy moly that does look very convincing , lots of original details still in evidence there as the car's not been restored and 'ruined' so to speak so lots of forensics to get your teeth into there Dave. Having the original body number is crucial with a car like that as it's one of the few important datum points that you can't just unscrew ! It's amazing what turns up isn't it and ex works shells and cars have a habit of surfacing all these years later and often does cause quite a stir.
I too also thought that Abingdon built a new car for Sebring (there's shots of it during final build which I'm sure you must have seen) but do remember that the owner of the US race car was absolutely adamant that he had the RAC rally car shell. However looking at various period shots of 309D you can certainly see detail differences between the early rally car and the later rally car as suggested in the other photo thread so I wonder if the GRX 309D number was put on two or even three shells. If your body number ties in with the official recorded chassis number for GRX 309D (which it sounds like Price has confirmed) that's pretty strong evidence. All the works car chassis numbers as I'm sure you know were published in the back of Browning's Works Mini book many years ago, maybe that wasn't a great idea in hindsight.

It's fascinating to see 'as found' shots of a car like this and a traceable history because that's what's usually missing in so many works race and rally cars.

It's funny, someone once told me many years ago that they'd found a British Vita racer in an old garage in Manchester. I pretty much dismissed the idea for quite a while and for the same reasons you spell out and guess what, it was ! :oops: So as you have found yourself, they do turn up !

Give my regards to Martin by the way, must be well over 20 years since I bumped into him , No Sheep Til Buxton ! :lol:
LMM76C
998 Cooper
Posts: 672
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:35 pm

Re: Works car found

Post by LMM76C »

"We'd like to see it sympathetically restored as group1 car, perhaps as Paddy drove it in the 66 Rally of the Flowers."

Surely it wasn't a Gp1 car then (or at all)? Flowers photos indicate a "very early 66" Gp2 car (like the Baxter car on the Monte) without arches but with more than 2 aux lights. (Fall was in a Gp1 car on the Flowers - an ex-Monte car).
User avatar
pad4
1275 Cooper S
Posts: 1089
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2010 5:57 am
Location: Darwen, Lancashireee

Re: Works car found

Post by pad4 »

Bloody hell - just when you thought there couldent be any more

theres gonna be a few dummies being spat out me thinks

pad
cookie1071
1275 Cooper S
Posts: 758
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 7:13 pm
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne

Re: Works car found

Post by cookie1071 »

the owners of the other 309D's will be a tad shocked :roll: , and there'll be no winners or losers I suspect, great find though ;)
User avatar
Pete
1275 Cooper S
Posts: 11092
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 10:47 pm
Has thanked: 18 times
Been thanked: 43 times

Re: Works car found

Post by Pete »

Anyone spot the double washer jet holes on this car are the same as on the Rally Of The Flowers ?? You can just see 'em on this shot..

Image

Those aren't there on Tony Fall's Polish Rally car which I presume was the same car that subsequently got the rear end damaged on the Welsh which in turn explains the spotless new car built up for Graham Hill's short lived drive on the '66 RAC. So that's a potential three different cars wearing the registration GRX 309D in just one year. Not uncommon in the Comps Dept though eh ?

Never the less your body number pretty much proves you have the first and original GRX 309D as originally registered from new by the works and as you have already discovered there's lots of Abingdon features on that car, look at that hydro plumbing! That's not to say that the owner of the race car doesn't have another genuine "GRX 309D" as shipped over to Sebring by Abingdon wearing the same reg number in early 1967.

It's an amazing discovery really to find an ex works Mini so intact.
User avatar
spoon.450
1275 Cooper S
Posts: 1804
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:13 pm
Location: DERBYSHIRE

Re: Works car found

Post by spoon.450 »

LMM76C wrote:"We'd like to see it sympathetically restored as group1 car, perhaps as Paddy drove it in the 66 Rally of the Flowers."

Surely it wasn't a Gp1 car then (or at all)? Flowers photos indicate a "very early 66" Gp2 car (like the Baxter car on the Monte) without arches but with more than 2 aux lights. (Fall was in a Gp1 car on the Flowers - an ex-Monte car).
Thanks for the info. LMM
Paul has no immediate plans to touch the car other than perhaps trailer it to Petes Mk1 action day ?? We realise that there are a lot of very knowledgable people, like yourself out there who if willing can help us obtain all the accurate detail to eventually see the car restored to how it was in its Abingdon days. Any information will be greatly appreciated.
Thank you
Dave
User avatar
Pandora
1275 Cooper S
Posts: 3106
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 8:01 pm
Location: Dunfermline, Fife
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Works car found

Post by Pandora »

oops, I think someone left the lid off the can o' worms. :lol: I can hear the axes being ground already.

I don't keep up to date with the intricacies of works minis - they make Lister Jags look like a walk in the park!

Was 309D the Graeme Hill RAC car? I think I was offered it from Ireland in the early 2000's?? I may be getting confused though (it happens a lot!)

What a find anyway!!! and nice to see how many of the now imaculate works cars actually looked shortly after leaving abingdon.

Best of luck with it.

Al
User avatar
billycooper
1275 Cooper S
Posts: 1458
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 3:57 pm
Location: Kendal, Lake District

Re: Works car found

Post by billycooper »

http://www.flickr.com/photos/16788879@N ... /lightbox/

GRX309D at Silverstone in 2005, vehicle registered on 13/01/1995, errrrm !
Steve "Murph"
---------------------------------------------
1960 Morris Mini-Minor 1380 KEC112
1976 Mini 1275 GT 1293 NVM265P
Gray
998 Cooper
Posts: 591
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 2:31 pm
Location: Nailsworth, Glos.
Has thanked: 1 time

Re: Works car found

Post by Gray »

Thanks for sharing the find. I find it hard to understand the keep it secret mentality, if we had of had the likes of the web sharing info back from the 60s - 70s then we may not have so many of the recreations now that have been athenticated by experts with other real cars being disregarded. Thanks also to Paul to letting you share it,another good reason to visit Blyton.
RTJ

Re: Works car found

Post by RTJ »

Gray wrote: I find it hard to understand the keep it secret mentality, if we had of had the likes of the web sharing info back from the 60s - 70s then we may not have so many of the recreations now that have been athenticated by experts with other real cars being disregarded.
There is a growing number of people who feel the same. Just because the powers that be have got it wrong, it dosen't make it right. I for one don't see any reason why this car, the real GRX309D should not be rightfully reinstated with it's registration number.

Great find

http://www.mountgreen.co.uk/
Last edited by RTJ on Sat Jan 25, 2014 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Toby
1275 Cooper S
Posts: 1450
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 12:29 pm
Location: the Netherlands
Has thanked: 1 time

Re: Works car found

Post by Toby »

Recently I spoke to the owner of an other ex works car, he specifically pointed out the way the wheel arches were modified. They weren't the normal bolt on extenders but they were fitted from the inside of the wing. It looks like this shell has them fitted in the same way. And in body colour as they ought to be
T.
fricsman
850 Super
Posts: 234
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2010 10:13 pm
Location: West Cheshire

Re: Works car found

Post by fricsman »

GRX309D at Silverstone in 2005, vehicle registered on 13/01/1995, errrrm ![/quote]

That 120 MNP gets everywhere doesn't it!
User avatar
Frogeye61
998 Cooper
Posts: 372
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 8:56 pm
Location: Storkøbenhavn

Re: Works car found

Post by Frogeye61 »

This is a very interesting article, but not in the least unexpected, for me anyway.
I reflect upon my own youthful experiences. Around 1972 while "hanging around" the Group 44 shop in Falls Church Va., I came by one Friday at an inopportune moment when the entire group was very busy. They were disassembling a factory new TR6, straight from the local dealer (Manhattan Motors). This was after disassembling their completely destroyed TR6 that the day before was their prized race car. Bob Tullius had a small accident. All the race parts went onto the new shell and the following Sunday they won their race. My brother and I came by the following Monday, and after proper congratulations and joshing around, we bought the steering wheel from the pile of parts removed from the new car and installed it on our TR4. It's still there.

I have never, ever heard in the media about the Group 44 TR6 being "reshelled". Sure it was purchased by Paul Newman and raced with nearly as much success as with Bob Tullius. It has had several other owners since then and is now beautifully restored and doing the show circuits.

But the original body, it was quite destroyed but in today's market quite restorable.
User avatar
billycooper
1275 Cooper S
Posts: 1458
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 3:57 pm
Location: Kendal, Lake District

Re: Works car found

Post by billycooper »

Just a thought :

If this car was the first shell of GRX309D, when GRX309D was reshelled a couple of times and then put onto the freshly built sebring race car, may the shell have done an event or two for Abingdon on other plates ?, any works Ss out there not found yet ??? ;)
Steve "Murph"
---------------------------------------------
1960 Morris Mini-Minor 1380 KEC112
1976 Mini 1275 GT 1293 NVM265P
User avatar
spoon.450
1275 Cooper S
Posts: 1804
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:13 pm
Location: DERBYSHIRE

Re: Works car found

Post by spoon.450 »

billycooper wrote:Just a thought :

If this car was the first shell of GRX309D, when GRX309D was reshelled a couple of times and then put onto the freshly built sebring race car, may the shell have done an event or two for Abingdon on other plates ?, any works Ss out there not found yet ??? ;)
This has been suggested to us, and will be something we will look into, but as yet we have no positive evidence.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Dave
LMM76C
998 Cooper
Posts: 672
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:35 pm

Re: Works car found

Post by LMM76C »

Just noticed that there is mention above of the Welsh being before the RAC in 1966.
That is a quite reasonable assumption from reading Bill Price's book (which has the Welsh in August 66) and Peter Browning's (which lists the 66 Welsh before the 66 RAC).
The 66 Welsh ran 9-11 December (see the relatively recent book "The Welsh Rally") ie. after the RAC. It would thus have been quite logical for Fall to have used the Hill RAC car,
which had done the smoothest part of the 66 RAC and would have only needed a new gearbox (and maybe engine if they thought gearbox parts had circulated after a tooth broke at Porlock).
Of course the Welsh GRX309D could have been another car with the number transfered but they would not have been flush with spare cars at that point in the year and would have been busy building 67 Monte cars. It being the same GRX309D therefore seems likely.

Quite apart from that date for the Welsh being confirmed by the definitive book on the subject, the 66 Welsh was also famous for Roger Clark writing off NVW242C, the car he had lead the first three stages of the RAC with, before a new type (or setting) of diff helped him go off in Puddletown forest, break the rad and blow the head gasket getting to service. There were claims that car re-appeared in private hands later and there was a claim a few years ago that the Jim Clark RAC car NVW241C had been found (a story that went very quiet when witnesses said it was cut up at Boreham after the RAC...).

One other point is that I don't think the 66 Welsh was an official BMC entry. Like the Gulf London (but not the Scottish and RAC) the Welsh did not then come under the SMMT listing of events manufacturers and trade could advertise results on. The car would have been "borrowed" by the driver from the works (and prepared by the works but not to the same degree as afull works entry) and there is virtually no prospect of it being a new car.
Certainly DJB93B was "borrowed" by Fall for the 66 Gulf and there may have been unofficial works service. Clark borrowed KPU383C and Elford borrowed KPU381C with no Ford service whatsoever.
Bill Price lists the 66 Welsh as a works entry but doesn't list Fall on the 68 Gulf so there are inconsistencies.
LMM76C
998 Cooper
Posts: 672
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:35 pm

Re: Works car found

Post by LMM76C »

masnarda wrote:Recently I spoke to the owner of an other ex works car, he specifically pointed out the way the wheel arches were modified. They weren't the normal bolt on extenders but they were fitted from the inside of the wing. It looks like this shell has them fitted in the same way. And in body colour as they ought to be
Except we know the only works rally appearances of a car carrying the number GRX309D were twice without arches and then twice with the normal 66/67 black "screw on from outside" arches.
The sort you describe are like those to be seen on Rob Lawrences JMO969D on MN events long after it's works period. So if original GRX309D got them in works hands...another can opens...
Post Reply