Waterless Coolant

[mk1coopers]

At the moment my engine is away being re-worked, when it comes back it will be an ideal opportunity to use waterless coolant as everything in the cooling system will be clean and dry. I've done some reasearch on the pro's and cons of using it rather than anti freeze and water, one of the cons (as mentioned on the company's own website, though not as a con) is that the engine can actually run hotter because the heat transfer to the coolant is better, with the engine I'm having done keeping it cool is high up on my list as that's whats been advised by the builder

Has any one used one of the products out there?, opinions (good or bad) please

[Spider]

Maybe not entirely helpful. I haven't used it, but I have read up over the past couple of years of those who have and I don't recall anything adverse or bad said, only good comments and feedback, though I do recall one down side (maybe) is it's quite a bit dearer than water / coolants. I think too it is kinder to the water pump seal.

[olddad]

I don't think the coolant causes an engine to run hotter, but the coolant temperature will be hotter due to the better heat transfer. The point the company is making is that the engine can be run at higher temperatures if you want to, for performance purposes, without boilover. Your thermostat will still control your temperature.

[mk1coopers]

Both good points above, the question is going to be if I can justify spending that sort of money knowing that I'm going to have to carry the coolant around with me as I can't mix it, I just want to do everything I can to make sure I look after the engine as much as I can from the start

[ianh1968]

the engine can be run at higher temperatures if you want to,
for performance purposes, without boilover.

I am not so sure about what the definition of "performance" here would be...
For maximum power, the 'A' Series needs to be run at 70 degC or so.

I cannot see what the benefit of being able to run the engine twice as hot
as this would be. My own engines start "complaining" if the temperature gets
much hotter than about 95 degC - a result of the cam/CR/octane combination.

The Evans fluid might not be "boiling", but the engine might still end up too hot...

The only real plus point I can see is that rusty water would be a thing of the
past. For the cost/inconvenience, I'd rather have the rusty water!

EDIT:
Another benefit might be that you would not need to have a pressurised
system in order to go above 100 degC. This would make cooling system
leaks less likely.

Ian

[olddad]

NASCAR engines are made to run at 230F. I worry when my Mk1 Mini gets above 190. Evans Co. is just marketing to all types. Their product works fine in all types. I'm OK with regular coolant with water wetter because of the cost. If I were racing I might think about spending the money on a little extra reliability insurance.

[LLA 24V]

Jay Leno's been using it for a while. Here's an informative video from his garage channel.

http://youtu.be/t7PykrgzWPQ

Certainly helps improve the life of your engine components

£100 pound for 5litres of prep fluid (reusable) & the everlasting coolant. The prep fluid did a good job of flushing out nasties from a 10 year sat engine with little glycol in it

Mini spares sell it. Although always with the "what's wrong with the free stuff out the tap?..." You guys!

[mk1coopers]

Thanks for those links, when everything comes back it will have been dipped so it will all be clean and dry, I've got a new radiator, but I'm undecided if I'll go for an upgrade and get an alloy replacement (which I'm thinking I'll have to paint black if I get one as I'm not into engine bling) fortunately the extended metal part of the radiator inner wing surround is long gone so I have a bit more space to play with if i go to a bigger alloy rad.

[NZmember]

It is just an ethylene glycol/propylene glycol mix like most radiant coolant concentrates. This is from the Evans NPG+ MSDS for their Waterless Coolant product. Interestingly, the website says it doesn't contain ethylene glycol whilst clearly it does.


And the prep fluid is the same stuff in a different bottle. As the image states, premium price for ethylene and propylene glycol cost about $1.50/L delivered.




Reminds me of that lead pellet addition to your petrol tank thing that came about when unleaded appeared. I can't see it being any different to the stuff from Halfords. I had to look it up - it is!! Halfords OAT Antifreeze Concentrate (22 quid) is >90% ethylene glycol.

[In the shed]

Big bore minis are already running hot.

Putting something with a lesser specific heat capacity figure in it is akin to blanking off bits of your radiator. It may boil higher, but since the ideal running temp is already exceeded in many minis, this is counter productive.

It's snake oil of the worst sort.

You want 100% water, in an ideal world.

[LLA 24V]

Cool information people! Bit of trade description issue Evans saying it has no deadly glycol.

From the ford ST forum courtesy of Dan.

I have been using Evans NPG+ waterlesss coolant for many years. I will never go back to coolants containing water in any of my vehicles. There are quite a few advantages to using a waterless coolant. For one thing your cooling system and components will last almost forever. The coolant is permanent so coolant flushes etc. are eliminated and oxide buildup in the cooling system is eliminated. Waterless coolant boiling point is over 375 degrees f. The high boiling point keeps pressure buildup in the cooling system down so much you can remove the radiator cap from a hot engine without worry about coolant blowing out. While it is true that water/coolant blend has a slightly better ability to remove heat it offers far less protection due to the fact that it requires a pressurized system to raise the boiling point high enough to act as a coolant and also has a rapid failure point when your engine gets very hot. A really hot engine produces a vapor barrier on hot surfaces that causes hot spots and overheating and engine damage potential that the waterless coolant will not. You can run an engine with waterless coolant at very high temperatures without damage that an engine using typical coolant blended with water would boil over and stop. The higher boiling point of the waterless coolant can cool a very hot engine a lot better because it will not produce vapor and boil over. The coolant with water even though it can remove more heat reaches its failure point at its lower boiling point and loses its ability to cool. I have personally run an engine on my desert bike with a bad water pump over 15 miles with no coolant circulation and did not boil over or damage the engine. I had to to get back to camp. If I had coolant with water in it this would not have been possible. I know others have their own opinions about this but after 15 plus years running Evans waterless coolant in all my vehicles I am sold.

Curiosity will still kill the cat spilling this stuff?!

[su_mark]

I used it in my Super Mighty Mini racer and it made no noticeable difference either way in coolant temperature or performance - but maybe I'm missing the point...?.... It did, however, try to kill me twice:

Once when it got on the floor in the workshop and I stepped in it.....!

and again, more recently, when some leaked from another car on the circuit ahead of me...!..(1.50min into the vid if you can't wait) . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ra5CH7WeH6E

I don't use it any more.....

[In the shed]

I find this very irritating. It's bullshit and here's why.

Google "specific heat capacity" and find out what it means. In heat exchanger design, there are 2 main equations.

Q=UA(LMTD) and Q=MCpdT

Q is the amount of heat you have to get rid of.
U is the heat transfer coefficient, which is a combination of how well stuff transfers heat and how thick it is.
LMTD is the log mean temperature difference. It's a maths thing combined with the difference is coolant temperature and the whatever else it is (air in this case) temperature on the right side.

The next one is

M=Mass (the mass of stuff to be heated)
Cp=Specific Heat Capacity. (the amount of energy required to riase 1kg of "the stuff" by 1 degree). In water this is a large amount of energy SO YOU CAN LOSE A LARGE AMOUNT OF ENERGY AS WELL!!! THIS MEANS THAT IT TRANSFERS ENERGY READILY. THIS IS WHY WE DO NOT USE COOKING OIL IN OUR RADIATORS!!!!
dT is the temp difference across ie:- how much the water is heated/cooled by.

From those equations, you can calculate the amount of heat an engine is ditching by using a known set of variables for your radiator/model heat exchanger.

You can then calculate what size/thickness you require your heat exchangers to be by fiddling the figures around. For instance, you can calculate the area of your exchanger and it's thickness from knowing the size radiator you can stuff in there and the specifics of the core you have bought. You can fine tune it so that the thing is as efficient as it can be. Of course with a mini, you don't have much space, so you are left with maximising air flow to your radiator (to maintain as large a temp diff across the radiator gills) and keeping the radiator media to a minimum thickness/maximum area. You also need to keep the flow as turbulent as you can (this is some fluid flow stuff you use to calculate U). Then we come on to Cp.

In your radiator, you need the most efficient fluid you can get. You need it to very readily sink huge amounts of energy into that fluid, transport it and then allow it to be ditched by a temperature difference across the air/radiator barrier. The best fluid for this is water. It is the reason they use water in powerstation cooling circuits and not cooking oil, snake oil or any other BS.

If you put something else in, it may not boil. It's different Cp value will throw your equation out so that you either need a larger mass, or a larger area, thinner gills, more packing material or better airflow (mount the radiator on the roof, vertically). AS IT IS A MINI, YOU DO NOT HAVE THE OPTION OF DOING THIS, unless you want to mount a radiator and kenlowe in the passenger door.

The mini already struggles to keep down to the zone of optimum thermal efficiency, so any rise in temperature will compromise power output/economy. There is no nice way of saying this, it is the equivalent of lowering your octane by pouring paraffin in it, or pissing in your petrol tank, or putting crap in the air filter.

It is snake oil and it is sh t.

[minimans]

Big bore minis are already running hot.

Putting something with a lesser specific heat capacity figure in it is akin to blanking off bits of your radiator. It may boil higher, but since the ideal running temp is already exceeded in many minis, this is counter productive.

It's snake oil of the worst sort.

You want 100% water, in an ideal world.

+1 for 100% water and a bottle of Water Wetter, here in California it works just great in all my cars and my customer cars. In the UK or cold climate you could use a 10 to 20% glycol mix in the winter and still retain the benefits.........Paul

[surfblue63]

This is what happens when waterless coolant gets on a track

http://youtu.be/1ksjuwadwrg?t=21m37s

By the way, what happens to your oil when the engine is able to run at a higher temperature than designed for?

[foxy52]

Big bore minis are already running hot.

Putting something with a lesser specific heat capacity figure in it is akin to blanking off bits of your radiator. It may boil higher, but since the ideal running temp is already exceeded in many minis, this is counter productive.

It's snake oil of the worst sort.

You want 100% water, in an ideal world.

+1 for 100% water and a bottle of Water Wetter, here in California it works just great in all my cars and my customer cars. In the UK or cold climate you could use a 10 to 20% glycol mix in the winter and still retain the benefits.........Paul

....Wow !! some good tech points made !....I was getting very exited and then thought !!?? wait a minute.. my mini always has had 100% water..no overheating ! no issues ever..only flushed every 7 years....occas top up yearly with a dash of Glycol for the freezing weather...if I drain it out and refill it with water once a year like an oil change is that beneficial ??or do I not bother cos if it aint broke why try to fix a problem that doesn't exist ??.... so +2 for 100% water... foxy52

[minimans]

Big bore minis are already running hot.

Putting something with a lesser specific heat capacity figure in it is akin to blanking off bits of your radiator. It may boil higher, but since the ideal running temp is already exceeded in many minis, this is counter productive.

It's snake oil of the worst sort.

You want 100% water, in an ideal world.

+1 for 100% water and a bottle of Water Wetter, here in California it works just great in all my cars and my customer cars. In the UK or cold climate you could use a 10 to 20% glycol mix in the winter and still retain the benefits.........Paul

....Wow !! some good tech points made !....I was getting very exited and then thought !!?? wait a minute.. my mini always has had 100% water..no overheating ! no issues ever..only flushed every 7 years....occas top up yearly with a dash of Glycol for the freezing weather...if I drain it out and refill it with water once a year like an oil change is that beneficial ??or do I not bother cos if it aint broke why try to fix a problem that doesn't exist ??.... so +2 for 100% water... foxy52

You really need to add some sort of water wetter or a small amount of glycol to help prevent rust and electrolytic action on the dissimilar metals I'm not sure I would want to use just water on it's own and then not change it for a couple of years!

[mk1coopers]

So with the helpful comments in the thread, I think I'm going to go with one of Rich's 5000 series alloy rads (suitably de-blinged around the edges with black paint) water, glycol and a wetter agent, as I already run the 'paddle steamer' fan that should move more than enough air / water to keep it cool

[AMCO72]

Waterless coolant sounds just the bees-knees, BUT, no liquid transfers heat better than H2O. It might be fine in Mr Leno's old jalopies that only come out occasionally for a quiet run in the country. I have a friend who has an historic speedway midget which he brings out a couple of times a year. It is powered by a Ford V8 60 flathead and he swears by the stuff. Previous to using waterless, the engine used to boil its head off after switching off when hot.......now it doesn't. The engine is still hot, very hot, but the coolant boils at a much higher temp so doesnt throw it all out through the overflow. The point here is that it hasnt actually COOLED the engine that well......not well at all in fact. I think it might be ok in a Vintage car that probably runs cool anyway, and may not have a thermostat, but frankly I wouldnt waste my money, which is considerable, on it. We have a circuit Mini which was originally raced in the 1970's and the builders at the time opted for cutting oil in the water just to keep everything clean and free, and seems to be ok. The cutting oil also raises the boiling point a bit as well, and some of the Hot rod boys here use it as their cars are not out that often, and as we know engines lying idle for long periods is not good. I think waterless was invented, or certainly promoted by the American race-car driver John Fitch, and he was a pretty bright boy and certainly familiar with race engines. So there you go. A bit of water wetter might be a good idea but nothing else. Just my opinion.

[mk1]

This is one of the most interesting, informative threads I have read in a long time.

Thanks folks.